tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post8772850054613479455..comments2023-10-14T09:40:06.690-05:00Comments on Jean Kazez: Should Humane Farm Reform be Opposed?Jean Kazezhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-83717181609025515662009-12-01T22:53:03.765-06:002009-12-01T22:53:03.765-06:00I am going to be on the road for a couple of days,...I am going to be on the road for a couple of days, so comments are closed until I am back and available to moderate.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-65007955832840630452009-12-01T21:53:19.738-06:002009-12-01T21:53:19.738-06:00David, I'd say my post does engage with Franci...David, I'd say my post does engage with Francione's arguments. I am wondering what follows if you take his premises seriously--especially the premise that animals are persons. Can they really be denied modest reforms, if that's the right way to see them? I think that's an interesting question. <br /><br />As to Singer--perhaps you think he's tepid simply because he's not Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-83139362574982780842009-12-01T21:31:44.267-06:002009-12-01T21:31:44.267-06:00I have read Animal Liberation, and still own Pract...I have read Animal Liberation, and still own Practical Ethics. My recollection of his conclusion was that most people should be mostly vegetarian most of the time...mostly. That sort of conclusion seems to be inevitable from an act utilitarian starting pointing.<br /><br />Newkirk may aim, in theory and personally, but most of PETA's campaigns are not 'go vegan' campaigns, but Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03989672260103699838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-3705093607921754702009-12-01T20:21:17.314-06:002009-12-01T20:21:17.314-06:00Alex, I think people have to look at humane farmin...Alex, I think people have to look at humane farming changes case by case. They need to understand which changes are minor and which major. In my post I mention humanely raised beef cattle as much better off than ordinary beef cattle. Do you disagree with what I said there? <br /><br />David, Have you read Animal Liberation? There's no doubt at all that Singer thinks everyone should stopJean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-38587178002707347862009-12-01T19:41:13.019-06:002009-12-01T19:41:13.019-06:00Jean: From memory, in 'Rain Without Thunder...Jean: From memory, in 'Rain Without Thunder', Francione covers the points you made in your last comment in some depth.<br /><br />Singer's message is very different from 'go vegan', and the vast majority of PETA's spending is on welfarism reform.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03989672260103699838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-10283641884071895312009-12-01T17:29:48.088-06:002009-12-01T17:29:48.088-06:00Amos wrote: "I feel that it is very important...Amos wrote: "I feel that it is very important to work for reforms which minimize animal suffering and exploitation..."<br /><br />You are assuming that such reforms are possible, but that issue is one of the points of contention in this debate. See <a href="http://www.humanemyth.org/" rel="nofollow">www.humanemyth.org</a>, for example. See also this excellent video made the people whoAlex Chernavskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08200015595839585212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-71740385222793314982009-12-01T17:25:35.965-06:002009-12-01T17:25:35.965-06:00OK, that's helpful, but I don't buy that S...OK, that's helpful, but I don't buy that Singer and PETA are entirely focused on incremental reform. PETA couldn't be more clear about telling people to "Go Vegan." They spend lots of money getting out that message. There's nothing "incremental" about that effort. Singer also says "Go Vegan"--that's what he says (give or take a very small Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-55614887635267271222009-12-01T16:57:20.853-06:002009-12-01T16:57:20.853-06:00Jean: I think the issue is that you are categorisi...Jean: I think the issue is that you are categorising abolition/welfare along metaethical lines. Francione's categorisation is more complex. To Francione, new welfarism is both an ideology (epitomised by Singer) and a strategy (epitomised by PETA etc).<br /><br />So - and this is an ugly over-simplification, but I need to get back to real work - whatever ethic underpins someone's Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03989672260103699838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-37555161372103262022009-12-01T16:41:43.197-06:002009-12-01T16:41:43.197-06:00There's a implicit premise behind Francione...There's a implicit premise behind Francione's argument: that the world is headed towards veganism.<br />If the world were headed towards veganism, what he calls welfarism might slow that process, but I doubt that the world is going in that direction, at least not in the foreseeable future. Francione is in the position of those revolutionary socialists who say that any progressive s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-72494052869983799392009-12-01T16:34:10.727-06:002009-12-01T16:34:10.727-06:00David-- He makes Singer his prototype of a "n...David-- He makes Singer his prototype of a "new welfarist," and Singer is a utilitarian. So naturally I assumed new welfarism was more or less utilitarianism. What more does it involve? I'm happy to be educated if I'm missing something.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-14707470894244242592009-12-01T16:26:30.387-06:002009-12-01T16:26:30.387-06:00Professor Kazez: As I said in my comment on the pr...Professor Kazez: As I said in my comment on the previous version of this post, it is mistake to equate Francione's idea of new welfarism with simple utilitarism. That is not at all what he means by the term.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03989672260103699838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-29162638816764468202009-12-01T16:16:10.189-06:002009-12-01T16:16:10.189-06:00Stephanie, This topic got under way in the comment...Stephanie, This topic got under way in the comments to the post about my NYT letter. But yes, I suppose the letter is also irksome to some, considering that it sends out a big wet kiss to all the NYT readers who are doing their best to be kinder to animals instead of drawing a sharp line between vegans and everyone else.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-3900964112561801792009-12-01T16:12:47.028-06:002009-12-01T16:12:47.028-06:00Alex, I tried to read it. There are some interesti...Alex, I tried to read it. There are some interesting points in there, but there's also so much insulting nonsense I had to stop.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-71829860440178834222009-12-01T16:09:43.639-06:002009-12-01T16:09:43.639-06:00This blog post may also be of interest:
http://we...This blog post may also be of interest:<br /><br /><a href="http://weotheranimals.blogspot.com/2009/11/dear-jean-kazez-you-should-go-vegan.html" rel="nofollow">http://weotheranimals.blogspot.com/2009/11/dear-jean-kazez-you-should-go-vegan.html</a>Alex Chernavskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08200015595839585212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-52530303875236969402009-12-01T14:23:41.887-06:002009-12-01T14:23:41.887-06:00Was this in response to your NYT letter?Was this in response to your NYT letter?mehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04069632940893946342noreply@blogger.com