tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post8262046307418329805..comments2023-10-14T09:40:06.690-05:00Comments on Jean Kazez: SolidarityJean Kazezhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-66354293544515226472012-09-13T03:43:47.745-05:002012-09-13T03:43:47.745-05:00I think what feminists like Mayhew and Hall are re...I think what feminists like Mayhew and Hall are resisting is being co-opted on the basis of their sex by political formations that they don't agree with, not denying any legitimacy to group identity whatsoever. That strikes me as the most likely interpretation of their remarks given the context of an extremely toxic online row over specific issues real and perceived, and we should prefer to Torquil Macneilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-1571480412150738152012-09-12T21:30:59.292-05:002012-09-12T21:30:59.292-05:00The group solidarity (there's a word we don...The group solidarity (there's a word we don't hear enough in our circles!) aspect is indeed important Jean and thanks for bringing it up. Though obviously of the male group myself, I do recall witnessing the feeling you describe in full force at the Women in Secularism conference last May and from the feedback we saw online, I was not alone. I wish I could attend the Dallas conference butSimonSayshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04748847530760277608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-4321075145058950312012-09-12T21:14:53.466-05:002012-09-12T21:14:53.466-05:00I had a pretty long reply to Marc Jagoe typed out ...I had a pretty long reply to Marc Jagoe typed out (on this crap phone too!) but I'm not getting into that. Suffice it to say no one is required to enlist as reserve forces. No one. But, throwing others under the bus (barring some legitimate complaint) when they are combatting any oppressive issue is reprehensible.<br /><br />Refine their position. Be critical. That is how a group grows and juliannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-83466294487303832402012-09-12T20:14:42.717-05:002012-09-12T20:14:42.717-05:00I feel like your assertions leave out the personal...I feel like your assertions leave out the personal feelings of the people in these minority groups you are citing. As a black person I feel like any member of my group and race has a right to live their lives as they see fit. They are under no obligation to acquiesce to group considerations or prevailing thought on any matter, be they political, social, or religious. <br /><br />Of course, Marc Jagoenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-69017665184841210082012-09-12T17:13:23.067-05:002012-09-12T17:13:23.067-05:00julian, I hope we aren't niggling about callin...julian, I hope we aren't niggling about calling for resignation versus calling to be fired. I'll concede any point on wording. Zvan was calling for DJ's resignation. I haven't the interest to track down Christina's official stance, but her opinion seems clear from her words above: "I don’t feel confident that D.J. Grothe takes threats of violence against public figures inCraig Uriashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03390058922234703660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-28159649881961735552012-09-12T16:42:24.606-05:002012-09-12T16:42:24.606-05:00Quick note, I can't think of a single woman sk...Quick note, I can't think of a single woman skeptic who called for Grothe to be fired. I remember Laden suggesting it was time he resign but that's it.juliannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-65059927151791808322012-09-12T16:02:43.053-05:002012-09-12T16:02:43.053-05:00Yes, "woman skeptic" alone would be an o...Yes, "woman skeptic" alone would be an over-statement, but my guess is that it refers to particular woman skeptics who are not part of skepchicks. The front of the T-shirt said, "I feel safe and welcome at TAM", which may be in reply to Greta Christina (not a skepchick) who said,<br /><br />"I have no intention of going back to TAM because I don’t feel safe there. I don’tCraig Uriashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03390058922234703660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-22198303063773362932012-09-12T14:34:13.595-05:002012-09-12T14:34:13.595-05:00Right, I have the feeling the T-shirt was really a...Right, I have the feeling the T-shirt was really about certain bloggers, and she over-stated her point when she talked about not being a female skeptic. I'm with you on the issue of DJ--I wrote about that whole business a few months ago. I've also listened to most of his podcasts and see him as "super-ultra-reasonable" too. I find some of his actions puzzling (to be honest) butJean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-1130767697330851852012-09-12T14:13:46.318-05:002012-09-12T14:13:46.318-05:00If we strip away the context leading up to the T-s...If we strip away the context leading up to the T-shirt, I would agree 100%. However I interpreted the T-shirt to be opposing some negative behavior coming from the skepchicks and other skeptics. Dr. Hall assumed (rightly I think) that she was safe and welcome at TAM, and from that it follows that the frenzy over harassment was a negative thing. It appeared to be the result of online infighting Craig Uriashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03390058922234703660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-69150135645040253622012-09-12T12:29:48.768-05:002012-09-12T12:29:48.768-05:00@Jean ~ I suppose the same since she's no stra...@Jean ~ I suppose the same since she's no stranger to misogyny. Thus the "woman" part of her message was an error of judgement. <br /><br />Quote from [Wiki] :- [In 2008 she published an autobiography focusing on her experiences as a flight surgeon in the U.S. Air Force (she retired as a full Colonel). As a female physician, Air Force officer, pilot and flight surgeon she was a Michael Fisherhttps://secure.gravatar.com/michaeljfishernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-86271920517376654582012-09-12T10:48:02.923-05:002012-09-12T10:48:02.923-05:00Julian, I don't think we all have to "com...Julian, I don't think we all have to "combat Y". We are not all cut out of the same cloth. We are not all activists. But to actually stand up and say "I am not a member of that subset" is going much further than not being an activist. <br /><br />Michael, Don't know if Harriet Hall has said anything. I wonder if what was running through her head, really, was just a Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-55219999209328881222012-09-12T10:38:50.104-05:002012-09-12T10:38:50.104-05:00Obviously you are talking about Mayhew's blog ...Obviously you are talking about Mayhew's blog post here, but going back one step...<br /><br />Has Harriet Hall said anything about the message on her T-shirt? I get the impression she has said nothing since or during TAM ~ is that correct? <br /><br />T-shirt front:- I feel safe and welcome at TAM [Smiley Face]<br />T-shirt back:- I'm a skeptic, not a "skepchick", not a &Michael Fisherhttps://secure.gravatar.com/michaeljfishernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-11113437385386940702012-09-12T10:03:34.558-05:002012-09-12T10:03:34.558-05:00I'm pretty conflicted on this. Solidarity, and...I'm pretty conflicted on this. Solidarity, and I realize this isn't what you're going for, seems almost like conscription. Because we share X we must both combat Y regardless of our experiences or life goals.<br /><br />And I think that's part of the fear and rebelion we're seeing. People want their lives to be their own and "solidarity" can feel like an imposed juliannoreply@blogger.com