tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post7597296743724295280..comments2023-10-14T09:40:06.690-05:00Comments on Jean Kazez: Vegan PurityJean Kazezhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-27228984093770534542011-06-20T18:18:00.711-05:002011-06-20T18:18:00.711-05:00I eat raw vegan for health reasons, not ethical.
...I eat raw vegan for health reasons, not ethical. <br />One thing that really bugs me about vegans is their willingness to harm their *host body* and disregard the sanctity of our Mother Earth's life and wellness by ripping her guts out to produce those "harmless" synthetics to make their shoes, instead of using leather. <br />It's not rational thought to harm your host body, Jaellehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16840843681065103376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-50377877805380338692010-07-09T06:52:22.440-05:002010-07-09T06:52:22.440-05:00I just want to say I appreciate everyone's com...I just want to say I appreciate everyone's comments.Jean Kazeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-66215233101462224072010-07-08T22:10:46.727-05:002010-07-08T22:10:46.727-05:00Justin,
I do not find veganism "horribly&quo...Justin,<br /><br />I do not find veganism "horribly" extreme. I said extreme -- as in beyond the norm, which is true.<br /><br />Honey - buy organic. I buy one small jar a year at most from a small local farm. This is unacceptable according to The Vegan Society.<br /> <br />Bee spit! Ewww. But seriously, bees are amazing creatures and honey is one of nature's gifts. Cockroaches on Melnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-74667539753962156282010-07-08T16:14:42.050-05:002010-07-08T16:14:42.050-05:00But the Francinistas are an irrational bunch and n...But the Francinistas are an irrational bunch and not worth listening to IMO.<br /><br />Jean thanks fot the link to your vegans, donans, greenans post. I had forgotten it, so I enjoyed reading it again. Your analogies are right on and demonstrate clearly why the Franconista critics should be dismissed.Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06399341362068645241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-19349006657148358042010-07-08T13:59:10.399-05:002010-07-08T13:59:10.399-05:00Mel said--
"Vegetarians get the worst of it ...Mel said--<br /><br />"Vegetarians get the worst of it -- ridiculed from both ends by vegans as well as meat-eaters that have little or no regard for animal welfare."<br /><br />My experience too (at least here, under the onslaught of the Francinistas), and I have not appreciated it.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-5999712648696944742010-07-08T13:56:11.474-05:002010-07-08T13:56:11.474-05:00Aeolus, I keep struggling with this. In my book I...Aeolus, I keep struggling with this. In my book I do present veganism as obligatory. That seems like the most plausible view. I think it's another matter how we ought to see ourselves, and how others should see us, if we don't live up to the obligation completely. I don't see the obligation to be vegan as akin (eg) to the obligation to pull a drowning baby out of a pond, at trivial Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-58115094301517993162010-07-08T13:46:06.508-05:002010-07-08T13:46:06.508-05:00Mel (and all), I do not mean to hog the discussion...Mel (and all), I do not mean to hog the discussion here, and I hope others weigh in, but I feel compelled to respond. Being a longtime vegan, and one on the more strict or "extreme" end in how I live my personal life, this is a very meaningful topic...<br /><br />You seem to be missing the point I made earlier, that the majority of vegans recognize there are limits to what they can do, Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10319551504917171165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-20578346014151566172010-07-08T13:38:27.192-05:002010-07-08T13:38:27.192-05:00Vegetarianism (or semi-vegetarianism) is "rea...Vegetarianism (or semi-vegetarianism) is "reasonable." Veganism by definition is extreme. Is veganism "do-able?" For some, yes, and it's a perfectly wonderful, valid lifestyle choice. But when veganism is claimed by some to be the moral ideal, and when the Vegan Society declares that honey and bee products are not vegan, why should anyone be surprised such purist "Melnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-14840437033604891282010-07-08T13:26:50.494-05:002010-07-08T13:26:50.494-05:00Thank you for the question, Aeolus. By "toler...Thank you for the question, Aeolus. By "tolerance," I do not mean blind acceptance or complete relativism. Far from it. I simply mean a toleration for opposing viewpoints without an immediate, knee-jerk reaction that turns into vitriolic attacks before a serious, critical examination is made of the opposing viewpoints. Nothing should be immune from criticism; I simply mean that we Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10319551504917171165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-87664367913663533092010-07-08T13:17:21.079-05:002010-07-08T13:17:21.079-05:00Justin: Yes to much of what you say. But what is &...Justin: Yes to much of what you say. But what is "tolerance, pure and simple"? Taking a moral stance entails being at least implicitly critical. There's so much out there of "Diet is just a matter of personal choice. No one has the right to criticize anyone else." I.e., if I want to eat veal, no one should criticize me or take a "morally superior" attitude. (And Aeolushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15772583359516799143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-4676833591488186922010-07-08T12:23:26.082-05:002010-07-08T12:23:26.082-05:00Jean, I have been a very strict vegan for 11 years...Jean, I have been a very strict vegan for 11 years, and I have to say I have never personally encountered a belligerent, intolerant vegan to the degree you (or Fromm) mention. The root issue here is not veganism in the extreme, or any particular -ism, but the human tendency to turn fanatical about some belief. Be it religion, political ideology, racial identity, or even tastes in art, I cannot Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10319551504917171165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-74958255132903876542010-07-08T12:06:23.889-05:002010-07-08T12:06:23.889-05:00Justin makes a really good point. The more I thoug...Justin makes a really good point. The more I thought about that column yesterday, the more I started to see Fromm was not just attacking "vegan purists" but assuming all vegans are purists.<br /><br />Ed, you ask about why anyone should be belittled for making the maximum effort. Indeed. Here's the thing, though, I have been trounced by purists for NOT making the maximum effort. I Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-66334775081970132822010-07-08T09:19:02.857-05:002010-07-08T09:19:02.857-05:00I'd also like to second what Justin wrote. Wh...I'd also like to second what Justin wrote. Why the need to denigrate vegans? They do much good and should be applauded. So what if they are aiming higher than we are? There is no loaded gun pointing at any of us forcing us to adopt the same standards.<br /><br />Do we belittle people who seek to contribute more to disaster relief or feeding the hungry? Do we pull them down if they Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06399341362068645241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-76385855662195183382010-07-08T09:04:19.290-05:002010-07-08T09:04:19.290-05:00The majority of vegans are normal people (yes fami...The majority of vegans are normal people (yes family people, raising children) who seek to avoid exploitation and killing of sentient beings as far as possible. They do not claim or aspire to be absolutists. They just make reasonable efforts, that's all. Both major vegan societies agree with this non-absolutist approach.<br /><br />The Vegan Society states that "Vegan lifestyles Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06399341362068645241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-60593135765204291512010-07-08T08:45:05.659-05:002010-07-08T08:45:05.659-05:00Sorry to drag this out at all, but one other issue...Sorry to drag this out at all, but one other issue I wanted to raise here. Whatever valid points Fromm might be making about purist veganism, he is in fact writing in such a way to discredit ALL veganism--in contradistinction to "looser" vegetarianism. What this essentially does is to put things in an all-or-nothing light, so that veganism in any form is cast as foolish and worthless. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10319551504917171165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-4692957295434141162010-07-07T13:32:31.276-05:002010-07-07T13:32:31.276-05:00Fromm: "But even larger creatures like cockro...Fromm: "But even larger creatures like cockroaches and rats, do they enter into the purview of animal-rights activists?"<br /><br />As a matter of fact I know of one prominent animal rights activist who was involved with a group that finds new homes for rats. <br /><br />According to the Vegan Society, honey and bee products are not vegan. Yet are bees the only insects killed, eaten andMelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-64021637024752581862010-07-07T13:14:52.740-05:002010-07-07T13:14:52.740-05:00Wayne, The vegan purists I have in mind are people...Wayne, The vegan purists I have in mind are people who do things like spending hours and days trying to decide whether to eat an oreo, even though there are no animal products in the ingredient list. There are plenty of such people on the internet--acolytes of Gary Francione. I'm not calling someone a purist for more ordinary vegan behavior.<br /><br />If you really think about what it wouldJean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-30995113311188303672010-07-07T12:36:32.327-05:002010-07-07T12:36:32.327-05:00Wayne raises a great point. I would question the d...Wayne raises a great point. I would question the definition of a "full" life. Seems very hard to make absolute definitions...and I would reject ones that are made purely on conventional cultural (Western) standards of living. Heck, animals may have much fuller lives than we modern urbanites do!!!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10319551504917171165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-70070259854102367182010-07-07T12:27:33.446-05:002010-07-07T12:27:33.446-05:00Ah, okay, thank you for clarifying that. Sorry for...Ah, okay, thank you for clarifying that. Sorry for the confusion!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10319551504917171165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-9657014610153077202010-07-07T12:26:42.306-05:002010-07-07T12:26:42.306-05:00I think vegetarians and vegans generally have the ...I think vegetarians and vegans generally have the SAME goals.... Just different ways in trying to achieve it. I'm sure vegans would also like animals not raised in factory farms. <br /><br />C'mon Jean, I know you know that veganism doesn't mean that people don't eat anything animal related because it makes them feel queasy. And a vegetarian who isn't wearing leather shoesWaynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08627147979307495870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-35432300089327651022010-07-07T12:18:43.916-05:002010-07-07T12:18:43.916-05:00It's the vegetarians he describes as wearing l...It's the vegetarians he describes as wearing leather and eating Jell-O.<br /><br />The vegans he has in mind are the purest of the pure. I think Aeolus is wondering how many of those there are.<br /><br />As for Belgium--I periodically wonder whether it's still around. Must follow that link...(with apologies to Belgians).Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-29518081321351448912010-07-07T12:11:35.971-05:002010-07-07T12:11:35.971-05:00Aeolus said it well, and I agree with him. Fromm i...Aeolus said it well, and I agree with him. Fromm is talking in extremes to attack an opposing ideology. I mean, if he is going to attack "puristic" veganism (which apparently means any form of veganism) but then characterize vegans as being "not prepared to stop wearing leather shoes or eating Jell-O," I have to question his integrity or accuracy. If he thinks most vegans liveAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10319551504917171165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-10072182447611514672010-07-07T12:04:13.454-05:002010-07-07T12:04:13.454-05:00Apart from his philosophical ignorance, Fromm sets...Apart from his philosophical ignorance, Fromm sets up a straw man to knock down. The people I've known who claim to be vegan have little in common with the stereotypes. But perhaps they aren't really vegan? Perhaps vegans, like the fictional country of Belgium, don't actually exist.<br />http://zapatopi.net/belgium/Aeolushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15772583359516799143noreply@blogger.com