tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post7274107458700835105..comments2023-10-14T09:40:06.690-05:00Comments on Jean Kazez: Reply to BlackfordJean Kazezhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comBlogger161125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-38508019939609236222011-03-19T02:17:55.907-05:002011-03-19T02:17:55.907-05:00For a more elaborate presentation of my thoughts o...For a more elaborate presentation of my thoughts on the literary and theological uses of "God," see <a href="http://specterofreason.blogspot.com/2009/02/clarifying-theological-noncognitivism.html" rel="nofollow">Clarifying Theological Noncognitivism</a>.Jason Streitfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06950357341620206095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-37916750881608437212011-03-18T13:09:41.344-05:002011-03-18T13:09:41.344-05:00I disagree with your last sentence, amos. Some st...I disagree with your last sentence, amos. Some statements using the word "God" are about a fictional character, but I think that accounts for a very small percentage of the cases in which the term is used. But I don't think this is the place to debate the topic further.Jason Streitfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06950357341620206095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-79174100957325977122011-03-18T10:20:31.411-05:002011-03-18T10:20:31.411-05:00Jason:
But we were talking about whether the term...Jason:<br /><br />But we were talking about whether the term "God" is nonsense, and "God", the fictional character who speaks out of the burning bush, is as meaningful as Hamlet and Madame Bovary are. <br /><br />All or almost all statements about "God" can be seen as statements about an imaginary being, that is, a fictional character.s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-80973140222055956992011-03-17T15:35:09.458-05:002011-03-17T15:35:09.458-05:00Yes, of course, I gladly acknowledge that "Go...Yes, of course, I gladly acknowledge that "God" can refer to a fictional character. But when people say "Augustine saw God in a dream," they likely do not mean he saw a fictional character. They're presumably not using the term in that sense.Jason Streitfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06950357341620206095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-42796848995574640232011-03-12T19:06:11.126-06:002011-03-12T19:06:11.126-06:00Right. Augustine saw a fictional character, Go...Right. Augustine saw a fictional character, God, in a vision, just as I would like to meet, Hamlet, another fictional character. <br /><br />I don't think that talk about fictional characters, either God or Hamlet, is meaningless.<br /><br />The email thing here doesn't always work for me either.<br /><br />I'm Amos, by the way.s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-34510966891832608142011-03-12T16:09:25.146-06:002011-03-12T16:09:25.146-06:00Hi, amos. Sorry for not responding sooner. I did...Hi, amos. Sorry for not responding sooner. I didn't notice that you'd posted before. (I don't think I got an email for some reason.)<br /><br />Anyway, if you are saying that St. Augustine saw God in a vision, I would have to wonder what you were talking about. I don't know what it means to see God in a vision. Do you mean that Augustine saw <i>something</i> and believed it Jason Streitfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06950357341620206095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-76548566689740311492011-03-01T14:03:37.342-06:002011-03-01T14:03:37.342-06:00How about Saint Augustin saw God in a vision? I...How about Saint Augustin saw God in a vision? Is "God" meaningless in that sentence?<br /><br />I don't think so.s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-62134111741143083652011-03-01T13:30:51.095-06:002011-03-01T13:30:51.095-06:00Yes, but I don't suspect that truth conditions...Yes, but I don't suspect that truth conditions are generated that way. I think it has more to do with how sentences are used. It's not just syntax and word meanings. There's plenty of room for disagreement here, of course. Plenty to think about, as you said.Jason Streitfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06950357341620206095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-80359017867846223032011-03-01T13:09:53.481-06:002011-03-01T13:09:53.481-06:00Sentences can make claims that are utterly nonsens...Sentences can make claims that are utterly nonsensical because truth conditions are generated through syntax plus the meaning of words. "The number 4 is green" is nonsense (it's false, obviously false, necessarily false), but it has perfectly clear truth conditions. "God exists" could be like that. I'm not saying that it is--just saying that "nonsense" is Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-24592026265403997782011-03-01T12:53:03.650-06:002011-03-01T12:53:03.650-06:00I don't see how utter nonsense could have trut...I don't see how utter nonsense could have truth conditions.Jason Streitfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06950357341620206095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-7887176283633453342011-03-01T12:15:59.226-06:002011-03-01T12:15:59.226-06:00To my mind, the reasons you give are reasons to fi...To my mind, the reasons you give are reasons to find it really obvious that there is no creator for the universe. There just couldn't be one--the whole idea makes no sense. It's like "the number 4 is green." Utter nonsense, but the sentence still has truth conditions. <br /><br />I should say--these things are interesting and complicated (see...I actually think everything Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-9746246872403312122011-03-01T11:55:31.184-06:002011-03-01T11:55:31.184-06:00Right, so we just disagree about what are the most...Right, so we just disagree about what are the most important ways we should be challenging religious authority.<br /><br />By the way, I don't think the Mona Lisa and the universe are the same sort of thing. They're not in the same logical category. We could fuss over how best to define these terms, but let's say "universe" denotes the natural world, and "creator"Jason Streitfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06950357341620206095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-67170284499917015532011-03-01T11:21:31.080-06:002011-03-01T11:21:31.080-06:00If "personal creator of the Mona Lisa" m...If "personal creator of the Mona Lisa" make sense, it would be pretty odd if things fell apart when you said "personal creator of the universe."<br /><br />The important question is whether most important ways of challenging religious authority are still cogent, given my story. I say yes.<br /><br />Yes, Russell and I are not really extremely far apart on this issue--that'Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-62090809871612383072011-03-01T11:02:32.095-06:002011-03-01T11:02:32.095-06:00As I said, Jean, I don't think "creator o...As I said, Jean, I don't think "creator of the universe" is a coherent concept. Same goes for "personal creator of the universe."<br /><br />I think your argument about the status quo issue is erroneous. You are arguing that (1) your position doesn't get in the way of all challenges to religious authority (2) therefore, it doesn't get in the way at all. That'Jason Streitfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06950357341620206095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-61568407711838917512011-03-01T10:48:58.435-06:002011-03-01T10:48:58.435-06:00Re non-cognitivism: right, the issue is truth con...Re non-cognitivism: right, the issue is truth conditions. I think atheists have beliefs about the universe, not just about how people talk. They believe the universe has no personal creator, for example. That's a perfectly clear idea. The Mona Lisa has a personal creator, the universe doesn't. That's (at least part of) what atheists believe.<br /><br />Re: status quo. Yes, of Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-62675458504627547612011-03-01T09:42:56.285-06:002011-03-01T09:42:56.285-06:00Faust,
I don't think everybody who conscienti...Faust,<br /><br />I don't think everybody who conscientiously lacks a belief in God is a theological non-cognitivist. But I do think everybody who conscientiously lacks belief in God could be considered an atheist. And I do think theological noncognitivists fit that bill. But I wouldn't say moral noncognitivism entails a lack of belief in morality.<br /><br />Jean,<br /><br />I didn&#Jason Streitfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06950357341620206095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-8604444173089855472011-03-01T08:39:31.681-06:002011-03-01T08:39:31.681-06:00Following up on a different point in your post, Ja...Following up on a different point in your post, Jason...<br /><br />I don't follow why you think it would keep the status quo in place, if people asserted just the partial incompatibility of science and religion. That's seems bizarre to me, because I would never have thought challenging religious authority depended much on taking a stand about incompatibility to begin with. I could Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-54745441284747203302011-02-28T22:32:37.847-06:002011-02-28T22:32:37.847-06:00Interesting. But I'm having trouble getting fr...Interesting. But I'm having trouble getting from "conscientious lack of belief in god," to theological noncognitivism. Where does the conscientious part come in? And does this mean that one can have a "conscientious" lack of belief in morality, due to one's moral noncognitivism?Faustnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-44732480262249597822011-02-28T09:09:47.387-06:002011-02-28T09:09:47.387-06:00I'll just address one important point, and let...I'll just address one important point, and let the rest go, for the sake of closure. The point is about the definition of the word "atheism." You say it is belief that there is no god, nothing more and nothing less. I say that's not necessarily true. You say it's not up for grabs. I say it is. <br /><br />Here's why. Atheism can mean belief that there is no god, Jason Streitfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06950357341620206095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-31825889710007512042011-02-28T08:58:53.786-06:002011-02-28T08:58:53.786-06:00Jean, I think it's a reasonable discussion to ...Jean, I think it's a reasonable discussion to have about whether people in possession of advanced knowledge should control if or how their opinion is presented to the public (google Prof. Nutt to see an example of this from the UK.)<br /><br />I am of the view that any experts lying to the public immediately lose their credibility regardless of their motives. The outcome might be seen to be March Harehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13116034158087704885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-50285915692449831942011-02-28T08:08:05.347-06:002011-02-28T08:08:05.347-06:00"No, Jean, that's what atheism is to you...."No, Jean, that's what atheism is to you. That's not what it is to all atheists. For some atheists, it really does entail the rejection of religious authority."<br /><br />Atheism really is just the belief that there is no God. That's not up for grabs--it's definitional. Sure, atheists have additional beliefs, and some are important to them. But no, atheism doesn't Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-4150358416767848222011-02-28T00:34:07.801-06:002011-02-28T00:34:07.801-06:00Jean,
I think you're misconstruing a lot of w...Jean,<br /><br />I think you're misconstruing a lot of what I'm saying. First, you say, "I don't agree with you that all atheists are thinking in these terms anyway."<br /><br />I never said all atheists think in these terms. I've been clear about that.<br /><br />Then you say, "as to public atheism being necessarily bound up with saying that science and religion Jason Streitfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06950357341620206095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-65705687354594694212011-02-27T19:02:57.516-06:002011-02-27T19:02:57.516-06:00Amos, Just a matter of not being at my computer f...Amos, Just a matter of not being at my computer for a few hours.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-52032818272665940742011-02-27T18:26:44.150-06:002011-02-27T18:26:44.150-06:00Hello Jean:
One of my comments, a reply to Jason...Hello Jean:<br /><br />One of my comments, a reply to Jason, got lost in the moderation filter. <br /><br />Since I said nothing offensive to you or to Jason, I don't see why that comment should not appear.<br /><br />Given your posterior reply to Jason, my comment is totally superfluous and mistaken about your intentions, but obviously, I had no way of knowing that when I wrote it, s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-18794216700168331942011-02-27T16:44:21.657-06:002011-02-27T16:44:21.657-06:00Jason,
I don't think you're seeing the ...Jason, <br /><br />I don't think you're seeing the relevance of my examples. I brought them up in the context of a certain debate. The issue Russell raised was about Mooney challenging the candor of Coyne. It was the very idea of challenging candor that bothered him. In light of that, it was reasonable for me to examine the policy of "constant candor." My examples show that Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.com