tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post56177411025477661..comments2023-10-14T09:40:06.690-05:00Comments on Jean Kazez: LooperJean Kazezhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-59399185024862411232012-10-17T11:02:47.735-05:002012-10-17T11:02:47.735-05:00I think this is a "puzzle movie" (like I...I think this is a "puzzle movie" (like Inception). You are meant to sit there and try to figure out how time travel is working, what happened at different points, etc. etc. That's the pleasure of the movie--the cognitive "buzz" it gives you. Now, if you work too hard on that and get too serious about it, that will stop you from experiencing any of the other pleasures of Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-44210918943063011042012-10-17T10:55:27.844-05:002012-10-17T10:55:27.844-05:00Faust- I agree with you. Never let metaphysics a...Faust- I agree with you. Never let metaphysics and actually possibly things get in the way of good storytelling. But that said, there is something beneficial in trying to think through the time travel elements too. It helps us become more clear about our concepts of time, or a theory of possible worlds in my case. Waynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08627147979307495870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-74124398910821200232012-10-16T14:18:56.794-05:002012-10-16T14:18:56.794-05:00Interesting point. I'll wait for you to say mo...Interesting point. I'll wait for you to say more before responding.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-9483647464240475592012-10-16T09:50:58.474-05:002012-10-16T09:50:58.474-05:00I have a number of things to say about this movie ...I have a number of things to say about this movie but that will require more time than I have today, so I will enter just this one point for now. <br /><br />I think it is a mistake for most of these movies, which I think of as "puzzle" movies, to analyze them at the literal level (there are exceptions, such as Primer, which does want you to take the actual time travel seriously, thoughFaustnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-88104248684694101842012-10-15T16:00:13.970-05:002012-10-15T16:00:13.970-05:00Hmm... Well, the movie is a little vague about wh...Hmm... Well, the movie is a little vague about what timeline we're seeing initially... After all we first see Old Joe with no bag, then we see Old joe in the future, and in his flash forward, we see the flashback of him showing up the first time through with a bag over his head. But I suspect we might have to suspend our disbelief at some point to make the story work. :)Waynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08627147979307495870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-20642003356429200832012-10-15T11:11:39.543-05:002012-10-15T11:11:39.543-05:00I really like the idea of the beggar being the alt...I really like the idea of the beggar being the alternate way Rainmaker goes bad, which Old Joe then replaces. However, we do learn about the Rainmaker before Old Joe shows up. Paul Dano hears about the Rainmaker from his older self when he lets his loop run. Rhysnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-20434158202714017412012-10-15T11:09:00.348-05:002012-10-15T11:09:00.348-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Rhyshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01231688523300463487noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-85471670564189663122012-10-15T10:44:05.232-05:002012-10-15T10:44:05.232-05:00Oh and Rainmaker had to be exist in all the timeli...Oh and Rainmaker had to be exist in all the timelines beyond the end of the movie. Young Joe talks about him at the beginning of the movie before he meets old joe. I'm not sure when we find out that he's responsible for closing all the loops in the future... That might be after Old Joe comes, which is consistent with the theory I'm spinning to explain the movie. If we know that Waynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08627147979307495870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-33876406901515042712012-10-15T10:38:57.082-05:002012-10-15T10:38:57.082-05:00So I was thinking about Rhys' problem of time ...So I was thinking about Rhys' problem of time line prime. The time line that we see in a flash, with Old Joe being killed with a bag over his head. In that time line, if the loop didn't happen, Rhys says that we wouldn't have a rainmaker, since it was Old Joe that caused the rainmaker in the first place. But I think we can have a plausible explanation of Rainmaker without Old Joe Waynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08627147979307495870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-23408713421294020452012-10-15T08:42:43.680-05:002012-10-15T08:42:43.680-05:00I get that point now, but I'm having second th...I get that point now, but I'm having second thoughts about your first point. You said--"we know that the Rainmaker has gone bad without Old Joe having shot Rainmaker's mom, because the first time around Young Joe shoots Old Joe. Then he grows up into a future where Rainmaker is bad, even though Old Joe never did anything to Rainmaker's mom."<br /><br />Your time-line is Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-26975030939388947982012-10-15T06:05:21.556-05:002012-10-15T06:05:21.556-05:00Wayne is right about my second point. It's con...Wayne is right about my second point. It's confusing because of the oddities that time travel would create, and perhaps because the film doesn't fully grasp all the oddities. <br /><br />One way to think about it is to consider all the people Old Joe killed toward the end of the movie on his way to the field. Once Young Joe kills himself, thus preventing Old Joe from coming back in time Rhysnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-83949371551372868182012-10-14T23:22:12.535-05:002012-10-14T23:22:12.535-05:00I think what Rhys was suggesting was that once you...I think what Rhys was suggesting was that once young joe figured out what causes the rainmaker to become who he becomes, his loop, that he could just not kill anyone at that point, live out his life, and when he gets kidnapped to be sent back in time again, he could commit suicide then, which will stop the next time loop. This way young joe gets to live out more of his life.Waynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08627147979307495870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-9778411275282342402012-10-14T23:18:03.132-05:002012-10-14T23:18:03.132-05:00Rhys- -I take back what I said about "not a p...Rhys- -I take back what I said about "not a plot problem"--maybe it really is an inconsistency. Must think about it more!Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-91870617058628212062012-10-14T22:59:40.657-05:002012-10-14T22:59:40.657-05:00Rhys, Great point! That's a plot problem I had...Rhys, Great point! That's a plot problem I hadn't noticed--or maybe not so much a plot problem, but a problem with the whole idea of redoing the past via time travel.<br /><br />I don't see what you mean about Young Joe not having to kill himself when he did. Doesn't he have to kill himself to quickly zap Old Joe out of existence, so he won't shoot Sara? I thought the idea Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-45930980411019381702012-10-14T18:00:15.460-05:002012-10-14T18:00:15.460-05:00The movie was really clever in turning what is he ...The movie was really clever in turning what is he norm in time travel movies, that the future is not set, to the past is not set. The entire movie is premised on a quasi reverse causation. <br /><br />When old and young joe are chatting at the diner, they establish that old joes memories are all foggy, that he doesn't remember what happened in the past until it actually happens to young joeWaynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08627147979307495870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-47667556025215562842012-10-14T16:54:24.317-05:002012-10-14T16:54:24.317-05:00Was Young Joe mistaken in shooting himself? His as...Was Young Joe mistaken in shooting himself? His assumption is that Old Joe killing Rainmaker's mom is what makes Rainmaker go bad in the future. However, we know that the Rainmaker has gone bad without Old Joe having shot Rainmaker's mom, because the first time around Young Joe shoots Old Joe. Then he grows up into a future where Rainmaker is bad, even though Old Joe never did anything toRhysnoreply@blogger.com