tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post5578105390605942094..comments2023-10-14T09:40:06.690-05:00Comments on Jean Kazez: Strategic Self-RestraintJean Kazezhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comBlogger111125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-47976601417371842942009-08-24T08:39:52.975-05:002009-08-24T08:39:52.975-05:00Ben: It's been a long and interesting conver...Ben: It's been a long and interesting conversation, and it's been a pleasant to make your acquaintance. We've strayed far from the original topic. After a night of insomnia and various family problems, I don't feel capable of spelling my own name, much less of answering your thoughtful comments. I'm sure that we'll run into each other in future threads. Thank s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-4436894949370451542009-08-23T22:45:01.771-05:002009-08-23T22:45:01.771-05:00I'll reiterate, just so we don't get tripp...I'll reiterate, just so we don't get tripped up on terms. <br /><br />I don't agree that secular activism is characteristic of the left everywhere, though secularism tends to be (I make a distinction there). i.e., secular = You can agree with the separation of church and state and still be Catholic. Secular activist = your advocacy of church is very minimal; typical comment is "IBLS Nelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09221793753245953967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-74297182234694149682009-08-23T22:22:02.621-05:002009-08-23T22:22:02.621-05:00No contradiction, of course, but surely different ...No contradiction, of course, but surely different accents. Just to explain the direction of my comments.<br /><br />Re: left. I'm going by the polls, say, in support of health care reform, which have been high for some time. From 2007: "Nine out of 10 say the system needs at least fundamental changes, including 36 percent who favor a complete overhaul." http://www.cbsnews.com/BLS Nelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09221793753245953967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-74009482235446209282009-08-23T17:30:28.169-05:002009-08-23T17:30:28.169-05:00There's no contradiction between speaking of a...There's no contradiction between speaking of a good society and the capacities approach. A good society is one where all can live their capacities; living one's capacities gives one the possibility of eudaimonia, of a good life. Without capacities, a good life is not possible or so says Aristotle. He doesn't use the term "capacities" of course. I can find the s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-12900085573121688232009-08-23T16:25:55.328-05:002009-08-23T16:25:55.328-05:00Amos, sure, but talk about the "good society&...Amos, sure, but talk about the "good society" sounds more like eudaimonia than the capabilities approach. And of course there's no doubting that political reform is a means to the eudaimonic end, just as anti-Bush activism is. Considered independently from each other, they're both prudentially recommended for those folks with liberal views (this was my original point). But when BLS Nelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09221793753245953967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-14180347940569017982009-08-23T13:39:20.255-05:002009-08-23T13:39:20.255-05:00Ben: This has been a long and pleasant conversat...Ben: This has been a long and pleasant conversation, but I don't think that I ever affirmed that my goal were either anti-Bush or reforming the U.S. political system. I have always seen them as means to an end. As to alienating one third of the electorate, I think that you are assuming, without any empirical justification, that one third of the population is on the left; another s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-27581806684924930572009-08-23T12:42:30.128-05:002009-08-23T12:42:30.128-05:00My claim is that, in a society where the two-party...My claim is that, in a society where the two-party system is in play, one third of the electorate is programmatically alienated from the body politic. In principle, the alienated party could be left, right, or center; in America at the present time, it is the left. That means that one third of the body politic lacks the capability to engage with their political system -- they are serfs, not BLS Nelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09221793753245953967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-86853995624298021802009-08-23T10:55:24.638-05:002009-08-23T10:55:24.638-05:00A common error in progressive circles (hence, the ...A common error in progressive circles (hence, the idiotic name, "progressive") is that we are always going forward (avanzar sin transar) towards our goal, while in reality, at times the best we can hope for is to go backward more slowly, to slow down the backward motion.s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-2263391183143594672009-08-23T10:31:14.929-05:002009-08-23T10:31:14.929-05:00Prudence has to do with selecting an adequate mean...Prudence has to do with selecting an adequate means towards a good or virtuous end. We seem to agree about that. We now need a bit more clarity about what are the ends and what the means. As an end, I suggest a society based on the capabilities approach of Sen and Nussbaum. Now, are you affirming that such a society could not be created through a two-party system or that a two-party s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-20272136989081874782009-08-23T10:14:21.993-05:002009-08-23T10:14:21.993-05:00I'm a case in point--I bought the book for no ...I'm a case in point--I bought the book for no other reason but to find out what all the fuss was about. That'll buy two lemonades to sip on the yacht.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-32342510932735498652009-08-23T10:02:30.247-05:002009-08-23T10:02:30.247-05:00Amos, I'd be happy for M&K if they get mat...Amos, I'd be happy for M&K if they get matching yachts named "Coyne" and "Peasy". Hopefully, book sales will bring the debates alive in the popular mind. This would branch our secular hobbyhorse out into the silliness of the real world where previously it has just been restricted to the silliness of the interweb.BLS Nelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09221793753245953967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-84087183287703409612009-08-23T09:55:27.245-05:002009-08-23T09:55:27.245-05:00Amos, thanks. That's why they keep me caged in...Amos, thanks. That's why they keep me caged in the back room. But I hope people don't discriminate against me because they think I'm an atheist, because as far as they know, I'm not one. Instead I call myself a "quietist" or "secular activist".<br /><br />So long as the virtuous goals are phrased as they were (pro-reform, anti-Bush), there's a bit more thanBLS Nelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09221793753245953967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-49235114302196642602009-08-23T09:27:06.931-05:002009-08-23T09:27:06.931-05:00Matti: With all the free publicity, you guys an...Matti: With all the free publicity, you guys and girls have given the book, a book which few would have noticed is going to sell well. Mooney sends you his thanks from his newly purchased yacht.s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-76519904123011361932009-08-23T09:21:18.972-05:002009-08-23T09:21:18.972-05:00"I very much doubt they're losing sleep o..."I very much doubt they're losing sleep over the atheist reaction to the book".<br /><br />You are right. I think they are more worried about the generally lukewarm reception of the book. "Unscientific America" will not buy it and scientifically orientated people do not find it interesting.Matti K.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-90915535944639947152009-08-23T08:08:02.395-05:002009-08-23T08:08:02.395-05:00Well of course--the book is about science illitera...Well of course--the book is about science illiteracy and its multiple causes. It makes sense they want to talk about the other causes too. I very much doubt they're losing sleep over the atheist reaction to the book.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-43448048708340660222009-08-23T03:29:11.355-05:002009-08-23T03:29:11.355-05:00BTW, here is the last booster of UA by M&K:
h...BTW, here is the last booster of UA by M&K:<br /><br />http://www.alternet.org/environment/141679/unscientific_america:_how_scientific_illiteracy_threatens_our_future/?page=entire<br /><br />There is no more "new atheist bashing" like in their previous op-eds. They do not even mention the words "atheist" and religion. Maybe the confrontational attitude turned out to be Matti K.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-81848525160035380042009-08-22T22:40:36.598-05:002009-08-22T22:40:36.598-05:00"As for unresponsiveness, it's really not..."As for unresponsiveness, it's really not open to interpretation. They just haven't responded to substantial negative criticism."<br /><br />!!! Of course it's open to interpretation, but in the interest of conserving precious moments of my life, I'll just leave it there.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-84002659324948959682009-08-22T21:41:55.769-05:002009-08-22T21:41:55.769-05:00Ben: According to Aristotle, which is about as f...Ben: According to Aristotle, which is about as far I got in philosophy, practical reason has to do with determining the means towards achieving a virtuous goal. You already know that, I'm sure. What would be our virtuous goal in reference to U.S. society? Would you accept the capabilities outlined by Sen and Nussbaum as indicators of a virtuous goal in social terms, that is, the s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-37936264677247827842009-08-22T20:57:28.750-05:002009-08-22T20:57:28.750-05:00(Just so I'm not interpreted as a bastard with...(Just so I'm not interpreted as a bastard with that first sentence: when I say "you don't have to answer the complex part of that question" I mean to recognize that it's a Complex Question like 'are you still beating your wife'. And by "the unresponsiveness" I'm referring to M&K's intellectual hygiene, not your decision not to respond.)BLS Nelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09221793753245953967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-59842943770785779312009-08-22T20:54:44.231-05:002009-08-22T20:54:44.231-05:00Jean, you don't have to answer the complex par...Jean, you don't have to answer the complex part of that question, although the shallowness pretty much follows from the unresponsiveness. <br /><br />As for unresponsiveness, it's really not open to interpretation. They just haven't responded to substantial negative criticism. Rosenhouse is the best recent-ish example; their "documentation" of Coyne is little more than BLS Nelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09221793753245953967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-22206541899384982802009-08-22T20:53:00.334-05:002009-08-22T20:53:00.334-05:00I should've rehearsed these ideas before I sta...I should've rehearsed these ideas before I started writing, but I don't really know when that's appropriate, when it would be condescending, and whether or not anyone's reading anyway.<br /><br />Amos, yeah, long story short, prudence is practical reason. <br /><br />Slightly longer story: To say some action is prudent is just to say that some act satisfies some goal that we Benjamin Nelsonhttp://hownottowinawar.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-6038256011882877442009-08-22T17:40:05.094-05:002009-08-22T17:40:05.094-05:00Right, hindsight makes it more obvious what would ...Right, hindsight makes it more obvious what would have been the best way to communicate in the past. In real life, we have to try to predict the future. But <i>of course</i> that's exactly what we do, especially when a huge amount hangs on the way that we speak. <br /><br />As to "rule consquentialism" (which tells us not to do the thing with the best consequences, but to follow Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-57144790425952411522009-08-22T17:09:27.189-05:002009-08-22T17:09:27.189-05:00Okay Ben, please explain in what sense it was pru...Okay Ben, please explain in what sense it was prudent for Nader to run for president in 2000. I'm philosophically illiterate, so don't talk to me about the 1001 varieties of consequentialism, just explain in language that I can understand. This is not a trick question. Thank you very much. By the way, I'm using the word "prudence" as a synonym for "s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-51110125716277700992009-08-22T16:42:01.289-05:002009-08-22T16:42:01.289-05:00"Was it prudent for Nader to present himself ..."Was it prudent for Nader to present himself as a progressive candidate in that race, given that the contest between Gore, less progressive than Nader (especially in his days pre-sainthood), but infinitely superior to Bush from a leftwing point of view, and Bush was going to be close, according to the public opinion polls?"<br /><br />Yes in one sense, and no in another. That's whatBLS Nelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09221793753245953967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-55639011664015702022009-08-22T16:40:00.889-05:002009-08-22T16:40:00.889-05:00Amos, OB hit it right on. Your point makes for an ...Amos, OB hit it right on. Your point makes for an suggestive illustration, but can't possibly be retroactive guidance. Unless you know some historical details that I'm oblivious to.<br /><br />I add the point that there is such a thing as rule consequentialism, and all kinds of consequentialism view ordinary moral norms as prudential relative to rule they're trying to satisfy. So longBLS Nelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09221793753245953967noreply@blogger.com