tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post3979216388756838699..comments2023-10-14T09:40:06.690-05:00Comments on Jean Kazez: The Thirsty CowJean Kazezhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-25210408427308848772009-12-21T14:34:37.246-06:002009-12-21T14:34:37.246-06:00Alex: Now, you have me completely confused. W...Alex: Now, you have me completely confused. Why do you call yourself abolitionists if you're not in favor of an immediate legal change in the status of animals, that is, that animals are no longer property? The original abolitionists, the people who opposed human slavery, wanted to changed the legal status of slaves, immediately if not sooner. They were not concerned about s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-5876892484502242262009-12-21T12:47:09.090-06:002009-12-21T12:47:09.090-06:00Amos, abolitionists are not usually involved in ad...Amos, abolitionists are not usually involved in advocating for any sort of legal actions. The legal system typically <i>follows</i> social change instead of <i>leading</i> it.<br /><br />Declaring animals as persons -- in a legal sense -- is many years down the road. In the meantime, the best strategy is to convince as many people as possible to go vegan. One organization I particularly like (Alex Chernavskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08200015595839585212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-77032847041902179862009-12-21T08:11:59.579-06:002009-12-21T08:11:59.579-06:00I just took the test mentioned above. Although I&#...I just took the test mentioned above. Although I'm a meat eater I scored 17 strongly agree, 2 strongly don't agree and one between. There doesn't seem to be a strict correlation between love of animals and eating habits.rtknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-21120931179969433852009-12-20T11:55:49.769-06:002009-12-20T11:55:49.769-06:00Alex: The chief demand of the abolitionists, tha...Alex: The chief demand of the abolitionists, that animals are no longer property, is a legal reform, and like all legal reforms, may produce cheating or other forms of non-compliance, for example, a black market in meat. So let's compare the possible effects of legal reforms, whether they be abolitionist or welfarist, in the real world. By the way, the fact that a law producess. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-29039983741501975812009-12-20T08:49:24.110-06:002009-12-20T08:49:24.110-06:00Alex, That NYT editorial definitely does not objec...Alex, That NYT editorial definitely does not object to making the method of execution more humane. It says that such changes aren't enough. There's a huge difference. <br /><br />I think Francione should stick with saying that existing animal welfare legislation is not enough. I would agree with him entirely if that were his point.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-86220716577278509292009-12-20T08:39:28.931-06:002009-12-20T08:39:28.931-06:00Regarding the death penalty -- this editorial from...Regarding the death penalty -- this editorial from the <i>New York Times</i> comes pretty close to saying that it's pointless to advocate for more-humane executions:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/14/opinion/14mon2.html" rel="nofollow">There Is No ‘Humane’ Execution</a><br /><br />Amos: That is why abolitionists typically favor creative vegan education as a means to Alex Chernavskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08200015595839585212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-45126563109097715842009-12-20T06:43:10.301-06:002009-12-20T06:43:10.301-06:00Alex: You're playing a double game: you po...Alex: You're playing a double game: you point out the possible drawbacks of welfarism (people will cheat, products will be imported from the third world, etc.), while painting an idealized picture of what will happen if animals are declared not to be property, in the U.S., I imagine. Couldn't people cheat, even if animals are declared not be property; couldn't animals s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-61521554413058341242009-12-20T06:22:04.339-06:002009-12-20T06:22:04.339-06:00Alex, The issue here is Francione's stance on ...Alex, The issue here is Francione's stance on institutional reforms, so obviously the quote about institutional reforms is relevant. <br /><br />He's the one bringing up a thirsty cow, not me. Obviously, giving water to a thirst cow alleviates suffering. So if he thinks that's an apt analogy, then he thinks some animal welfare legislation alleviates suffering. To say otherwise wouldJean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-17174029912018198632009-12-19T11:27:48.273-06:002009-12-19T11:27:48.273-06:00Jean, I left out the quote because I thought it wa...Jean, I left out the quote because I thought it was a given that Francione is opposed to institutional-wide "reforms". The quote I <i>did</i> include referred to a specific situation in which one may have a moral obligation to help an animal in distress.<br /><br />I still think you misunderstood him. The main source of confusion is, I think, your belief that welfare-type reforms are Alex Chernavskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08200015595839585212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-46683373492644873542009-12-17T10:10:09.378-06:002009-12-17T10:10:09.378-06:00Alex, One more thing--
Back at the infamous threa...Alex, One more thing--<br /><br />Back at the infamous thread where I made my objection (and incurred the wrath of Gary), you pointed me in the direction of "Rain without Thunder." In fact, you wrote about the thirsty cow--<br /><br /><i>In Francione's book, Rain Without Thunder he develops the example of a thirsty cow being led to slaughter:<br /><br />"I am unable to discern Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-72952890038951538542009-12-17T07:30:18.694-06:002009-12-17T07:30:18.694-06:00Alex, Well look, the Humane Slaughter Act produces...Alex, Well look, the Humane Slaughter Act produces a more efficient system in just the way that electrocuting prisoners is more efficient than hanging them. But should we dismiss the benefits to animals just because there are also benefits to farmers and prison staff?<br /><br />But yes--there are lots and lots of causes. Nobody really has to get involved in humane farm reform. I can see that Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-92054901229017941172009-12-17T07:19:10.579-06:002009-12-17T07:19:10.579-06:00There's another way to look at this whole issu...There's another way to look at this whole issue.<br /><br />There is certainly no shortage of worthwhile goals to pursue in this lifetime. In the unlikely event that someone were to convince me that the <i>best</i> we can do for animals is to devise ever more-efficient ways to exploit them, then I would simply hop on another hobbyhorse, such as the <a href="http://www.thestreetspirit.org/Alex Chernavskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08200015595839585212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-87919968891767309222009-12-16T23:43:58.472-06:002009-12-16T23:43:58.472-06:00"Of course the greatest atrocity of the Holoc..."Of course the greatest atrocity of the Holocaust was the killing of 6 million Jews (and millions of others). But there's a reason why we ought to read the horrifying first person accounts. We don't get beyond the number killed by doing so, but we come to understand the utterly staggering depths of the suffering. It might seem impossible that the Holocaust would have been less faustnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-41123502972729073662009-12-16T17:02:32.444-06:002009-12-16T17:02:32.444-06:00Dom, That's a lovely rundown of the possibilit...Dom, That's a lovely rundown of the possibilities. I think at different points Francione seems to be saying all of these different things. <br /><br />He does sometimes make #1 the issue, but that's much too consequentialist for him, and I don't think it's his whole argument. (And that's for the best, since I don't think there's any hard evidence of welfare laws Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-64761498646397929902009-12-16T16:21:54.412-06:002009-12-16T16:21:54.412-06:00Brandon, I don't understand why you don't ...Brandon, I don't understand why you don't understand. So--we're tied!<br /><br />I linked to Dunayer's article in thread earlier this week, so yes, I've read it. I've also recently read her book "Speciesism." I don't think bringing her in as back up really helps, because she says much the same thing as Francione on these specific issues.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-86948023022484023052009-12-16T16:11:46.970-06:002009-12-16T16:11:46.970-06:00I fail to understand how you can read Rain Without...I fail to understand how you can read <i>Rain Without Thunder</i> yet still come to these conclusions.<br /><br />Here's an article worth reading by another abolitionist author. It discusses rights and advocacy for nonhuman animals.<br /><br />"Animal Rights 'Welfarists': An Oxymoron" by Joan Dunayer<br />http://www.satyamag.com/mar05/dunayer.htmlBrandon Beckerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05629813999047895841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-7266717194911153662009-12-16T16:09:42.982-06:002009-12-16T16:09:42.982-06:00Jean, I don't know if this helps
Lets imagine...Jean, I don't know if this helps<br /><br />Lets imagine two states<br />A - 100 cows are slaughtered and are thirsty<br />B - 100 cows are slaughtered following passage of legislation for provision of better drinking facilities in slaughterhouses and during transport. These cows are less thirsty than they would have been in state A.<br /><br />There are a number of different ways that Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11482806268276089591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-2698392728163977092009-12-16T14:38:54.341-06:002009-12-16T14:38:54.341-06:00Faust, Re: the second quote. I think this is all ...Faust, Re: the second quote. I think this is all a polemical game. He's trying to invert an objection that he knows could be leveled against him. Someone could say (in fact, this is exactly what I've said)--he wants to ignore the welfare of present-day animals in order to secure the rights of future animals. To preempt this accusation, he claims that so-called welfarists are the ones Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-54442980376541161102009-12-16T14:35:23.594-06:002009-12-16T14:35:23.594-06:00Jean- hmmm good point about my analogy. Maybe no...Jean- hmmm good point about my analogy. Maybe not the best for this purpose.Waynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08627147979307495870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-75028469184272940232009-12-16T14:23:06.757-06:002009-12-16T14:23:06.757-06:00Amos, Great example.
Faust, Frankly, I don't...Amos, Great example.<br /><br />Faust, Frankly, I don't think what he's saying makes any straightforward sense. It would be impossible to point to a specific right that's violated by requiring that animals be given water periodically.<br /><br />Perhaps what he's saying, but not saying straightforwardly, is that animal advocates get themselves into a peculiar state of mind when Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-73637393438727390412009-12-16T14:03:13.884-06:002009-12-16T14:03:13.884-06:00And that second quote, namely:
"The new welf...And that second quote, namely:<br /><br />"The new welfarists believe that it is both coherent and morally acceptable to disregard the rights of animals today (by pursuing welfarist reform that reinforces the property status of animals) in the hope that some other animals will have rights tomorrow.” (pg. 39)"<br /><br />Can be revised like so:<br /><br />The new abolitionists believe Faustnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-72928213667646736672009-12-16T13:57:47.782-06:002009-12-16T13:57:47.782-06:00OK help a dense guy out:
[E]ven if I am obligated...OK help a dense guy out:<br /><br /><i>[E]ven if I am obligated to give a thirsty cow water on the way to slaughter it does not follow that I should pursue that obligation as a legal or social policy, for the practical reason that it will never and can never succeed on an institutional level, and for the theoretical reason that it conflicts directly with the notion that animals have rights.</i><Faustnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-20471884597557301392009-12-16T13:57:43.664-06:002009-12-16T13:57:43.664-06:00How about being against humanitarian legislation a...How about being against humanitarian legislation about warfare (Geneva Conventions, bans on chemical weapons, possible bans on land mines) because it might prevent people from ending all wars?s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-23827375142775936292009-12-16T13:31:01.579-06:002009-12-16T13:31:01.579-06:00Hmm, but in that case, if you stop collecting bloo...Hmm, but in that case, if you stop collecting blood, you stop the injustice of discriminatory blood-collecting. So I can at least see the thinking behind the ban. In the case of animal welfare legislation, if you get rid of it, or don't add to it, you don't thereby end any injustices.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-43158727694615408432009-12-16T10:58:51.084-06:002009-12-16T10:58:51.084-06:00San Jose State University recently (I'm not su...San Jose State University recently (I'm not sure if they are continuing) banned all blood drives on campus because the policies that they use to determine who is elligible to donate blood explicitly excludes gay men, regardless of other risk factors. They saw this as discriminatory, and I agree. But banning blood drives seem to just harm those who are in need of blood. <br /><br />I think Waynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08627147979307495870noreply@blogger.com