tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post3322916234681966853..comments2023-10-14T09:40:06.690-05:00Comments on Jean Kazez: Chris Mooney's ApostasyJean Kazezhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comBlogger81125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-64830247707719504302009-08-05T22:56:41.517-05:002009-08-05T22:56:41.517-05:00Hmm, You say all sorts of things,not all of which ...Hmm, You say all sorts of things,not all of which I understand. I'll pluck one thing out to agree with--yes, it's good for "secular activists" to have a place to breathe. If blogs and such are just that--communities of like-minded people--then I'm all for it. It's the ambassadors to the public that you have to worry about. I'd rather have EO Wilson or Neil DeGrasse Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-81338412512129994602009-08-05T21:53:04.821-05:002009-08-05T21:53:04.821-05:00Hi Jean. I do, and have, and will continue to agre...Hi Jean. I do, and have, and will continue to agree with you that it is a terrific exaggeration to present Mooney as telling people to shut up.<br /><br />Unfortunately, though, that's just about as generous a reading as I can make for Mooney and Kirshenbaum. Mooney and Kirshenbaum are, among other things, giving simplistic strategic advice. I agree with most folks that the burden of proof isBLS Nelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09221793753245953967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-2045301449732159462009-08-05T20:22:01.740-05:002009-08-05T20:22:01.740-05:00Windy, The issue about the "cumulative effec...Windy, The issue about the "cumulative effect" of Pharyngula is a good one to raise. There is some good stuff over there (I steal his pictures sometimes, and used to have a link to the site). I also like the way he handles debate. He does not expect the site to be homogeneous. There is genuine debate with opposing viewpoints, and nobody is bullied into submission. He also had a Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-67186774608236791502009-08-05T18:27:24.007-05:002009-08-05T18:27:24.007-05:00Of course it's also because of what windy said...Of course it's also because of what windy said - which I thought I'd said long ago, but hadn't.<br /><br />"Maybe people are reacting that way not because of just this incident, but the long established pattern of Mooney&friends criticism of scientists and atheists. The debates over 'Framing science', Expelled!, Sizzle, and the argument with Coyne led to similar Ophelia Bensonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-87530694348211731012009-08-05T17:50:37.115-05:002009-08-05T17:50:37.115-05:00"They've made criticisms with a lot of fu..."They've made criticisms with a lot of fury, and then they've demanded answers as if Mooney owed them something. They've treated him like he had committed a personal offense against them."<br /><br />That's because of the content of what he said - particularly in that post directed at Jerry Coyne. He <i>has</i> committed a personal offense against most of us - he's Ophelia Bensonhttp://www.butterfliesandwheels.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-24429559328126764402009-08-05T17:34:07.687-05:002009-08-05T17:34:07.687-05:00Windy, I've been watching this whole thing unf...<i>Windy, I've been watching this whole thing unfold for over a month, and don't see what you see. In fact, I see the opposite.</i><br /><br />"Opposite?" You could argue that I left out the context or ignored or misrepresented something (I was paraphrasing), but I don't see how you can deny that those exchanges took place?<br /><br /><i>People haven't just made Tuulihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17139693087141113292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-84484884899547718202009-08-05T16:33:17.110-05:002009-08-05T16:33:17.110-05:00Windy, I've been watching this whole thing un...Windy, I've been watching this whole thing unfold for over a month, and don't see what you see. In fact, I see the opposite.<br /><br />People haven't just made criticisms of M&K. They've made criticisms with a lot of fury, and then they've demanded answers as if Mooney owed them something. They've treated him like he had committed a personal offense against them. <Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-85010583196009982102009-08-05T16:05:44.265-05:002009-08-05T16:05:44.265-05:00Mooney makes a mistake by putting his publicity st...<i>Mooney makes a mistake by putting his publicity stuff on a blog. At least he should turn the comments off if he doesn't have the time or inclination to get involved. It annoys people to be ignored.</i><br /><br />By unresponsiveness and disingenuousness, I didn't mean so much the blog comments as his dialogue with Jerry Coyne and others.<br /><br />Mooney implies in his criticism of Tuulihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17139693087141113292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-22165536583999450502009-08-05T15:07:01.914-05:002009-08-05T15:07:01.914-05:00Mooney makes a mistake by putting his publicity st...Mooney makes a mistake by putting his publicity stuff on a blog. At least he should turn the comments off if he doesn't have the time or inclination to get involved. It annoys people to be ignored. I do understand the time factor--he's enviably busy with his book tour. But then...turn comments off. <br /><br />I don't think the reader comes away from that chapter thinking of all Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-46959963541756431372009-08-05T14:45:31.043-05:002009-08-05T14:45:31.043-05:00Oh, but wait, what's my evidence that people l...<i>Oh, but wait, what's my evidence that people lose receptiveness to a message when the messenger is disrespectful?</i><br /><br />The best evidence of this would be Mooney himself, but that would kind of destroy his credibility on this issue. And possibly his unresponsiveness and disingenuousness have been more damaging: how would the atheist blogosphere have responded if he had been Tuulihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17139693087141113292noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-89322566550837103832009-08-05T14:29:26.284-05:002009-08-05T14:29:26.284-05:00One last thought. We're letting this discussi...One last thought. We're letting this discussion wander into general questions about how to write/talk, and how non-religious writers should write/talk, etc., etc. But that's not what Mooney's book is about, or what I was talking about in the post.<br /><br />The topic here is--how should <i>science educators</i> write/talk, considering that there is an urgent need for science Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-41121409793442169812009-08-05T11:24:16.778-05:002009-08-05T11:24:16.778-05:00There is a time and a place for almost everything....There is a time and a place for almost everything. If Paul Krugman were to begin each op ed column on economics with the comments that "religion is stupid" and "only atheists like me have a sense of humor", he would not succeed in getting his message about economics across to as many readers and he would be disrespectful to his readers who are believers. If Nietzsche hads. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-83652557742294219512009-08-05T11:22:52.238-05:002009-08-05T11:22:52.238-05:00For any teenagers reading, that was a reference to...For any teenagers reading, that was a reference to a SNL skit from way back in the 20th century.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-33004188231374443122009-08-05T11:14:33.262-05:002009-08-05T11:14:33.262-05:00I didn't think the quoted bits were properly u...I didn't think the quoted bits were properly understood. I'm also trying to get back on track with what I'm supposed to be doing. <br /><br />Let's leave it there--we're both unedified. It's better than calling each other ignorant sluts.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-86197179538824028092009-08-05T10:59:18.276-05:002009-08-05T10:59:18.276-05:00"Sigh. If I said all the things you impute to..."Sigh. If I said all the things you impute to me, I'd be the world's biggest idiot."<br /><br />Jean - for heaven's sake - did you not notice all the quotation marks? I didn't <i>impute</i> things to you, I <i>quoted</i> you.<br /><br />Maybe I misunderstood what you said about Peter Singer. Maybe "He's downright respectful toward religion in the book, never Ophelia Bensonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-68567055450814899132009-08-05T09:40:17.263-05:002009-08-05T09:40:17.263-05:00I'd be reluctant to set up one rule for all wr...I'd be reluctant to set up one rule for all writers. Christopher Hitchens is wildly popular yet offensive because he's mastered the art of being outrageous. He's just good at it. For most of us mere mortals, it's not a bad rule of thumb to be as inclusive as the topic allows. Don't gratuitously scare away half your audience either by being incomprehensible to them or by Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-82384312089052287672009-08-05T09:23:03.001-05:002009-08-05T09:23:03.001-05:00Let me try to explain why scientific discourse for...Let me try to explain why scientific discourse for the masses should be put in terms that they feel comfortable with. I've observed that is a cut-off line for the discussion of most issues. For example, if I observe a discussion about higher mathematics in professional terms, I will not participate because I lack the vocabulary, the entry-level codes. Thus, I am effectively cut-off s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-21662078592666519022009-08-05T08:58:01.685-05:002009-08-05T08:58:01.685-05:00Matti K.,
As to why that example. I take it Moo...Matti K., <br /><br />As to why that example. I take it Mooney is sincerely dismayed by the level of confrontation at Pharyngula. He was dismayed enough to move his blog. Plus, he's a journalist. Journalists know that stories work. People like to read them. Plus, Pharyngula was one of the top two science blogs when that incident occurred. So it's an example that bears on the issue of Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-47534534328232868342009-08-05T08:43:07.905-05:002009-08-05T08:43:07.905-05:00Personally, I think "faitheist" (= athe...Personally, I think "faitheist" (= atheist accommodationist) is a neutral term. It describes a subgroup of atheists, just like the term "new atheist". I assume you have no problems with the latter, although there are people who don't understand what the "new" stands for.<br /><br />However, since you obviously find "faitheist" derogatory, I will not Matti K.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-31246038300278770922009-08-05T07:52:33.531-05:002009-08-05T07:52:33.531-05:00Sigh. If I said all the things you impute to me, I...Sigh. If I said all the things you impute to me, I'd be the world's biggest idiot. <br /><br />Ah well. As you can imagine, I'm no longer finding this conversation edifying.<br /><br />Matti K--no insults please. The word "faitheist" is idiotic. I'm going to make it a practise not to respond to people who use it.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-27231529486353358142009-08-05T07:13:27.685-05:002009-08-05T07:13:27.685-05:00"Ophelia, It's odd to call it a distortio..."Ophelia, It's odd to call it a distortion to go from reading many cases of mocking and insulting to saying that PZ is generally mocking and insulting."<br /><br />No doubt it is, but why are you telling me that? Are you trying to give the impression that I said that? If so that's a distortion right there. I didn't say that.<br /><br />"Why do I particularly want to Ophelia Bensonhttp://www.butterfliesandwheels.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-63722434906907711442009-08-05T01:10:52.601-05:002009-08-05T01:10:52.601-05:00Jean Kazez thinks that "there are up and comi...Jean Kazez thinks that "there are up and coming scientists and writers who haven't made up their minds yet about how to handle religion in their books, articles, blogs, etc.". Therefore "Mooney will have his impact--and of course so will the other side".<br /><br />Those writers and scientists who feel strongly about religion will always be outspoken, UA or not. On the Matti K.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-63960943315576083362009-08-04T21:01:30.731-05:002009-08-04T21:01:30.731-05:00Tea, I agree completely: more research needed.
O...Tea, I agree completely: more research needed. <br /><br />Ophelia, It's odd to call it a distortion to go from reading many cases of mocking and insulting to saying that PZ is generally mocking and insulting. <br /><br />As to writing/teaching. All I can tell you is what I experience. People seem to shut off if you're not respectful...in my classroom, and where I live. I don't want Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-61191454595569393032009-08-04T18:59:49.712-05:002009-08-04T18:59:49.712-05:00A bit more on this
"I have very close friend...A bit more on this<br /><br />"I have very close friends and students who are religious and conservative. I've thought for many years about how to talk to and write for people like them."<br /><br />But why are you concerned just about how to write for people like them? Or if not just, then more, for people like them.<br /><br />Because you think they're more vulnerable? BecauseOphelia Bensonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-4215005051489936332009-08-04T18:42:13.271-05:002009-08-04T18:42:13.271-05:00Yes all right, that was a tendentious way to put i...Yes all right, that was a tendentious way to put it. But you are doing a lot of distorting and exaggerating while talking a lot about respect. M&K do the same thing.<br /><br />"Yes, I do think it's fair to say it's disrespectful to call Francis Collins a "clown" and a "flaming idjit." That's obvious."<br /><br />There's one right there for Ophelia Bensonnoreply@blogger.com