tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post2886139967382396160..comments2023-10-14T09:40:06.690-05:00Comments on Jean Kazez: "Jonathan Safran Foer is not a Vegan"Jean Kazezhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-20818621216664132902011-06-25T11:25:22.521-05:002011-06-25T11:25:22.521-05:00Classifying people against Foer as 'militant v...Classifying people against Foer as 'militant vegans' is a cop out to not actually look into the problems some vegans may have with Foer. Instead they're being cast aside as radical and probably ridiculous without even considering them. <br /><br />I guess I'd fall into your militant category because I'm upset that Foer isn't vegan, but it's not for any of the reasons Taliahttp://herbivoree.deviantart.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-74446940171416524422009-12-15T09:57:14.043-06:002009-12-15T09:57:14.043-06:00Isn't that wierd? I used to work at a bank and...Isn't that wierd? I used to work at a bank and I was pretty shocked by the lunchtime cocktail hour.Faustnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-51923785726658206672009-12-15T09:35:05.524-06:002009-12-15T09:35:05.524-06:00Militant vegans is why I am not a part of my local...Militant vegans is why I am not a part of my local vegan community.<br />These people focus on what they don't want (most times in gory, graphic detail) in order to get what they want. Sounds like a form a insanity to my mind.<br /><br />And as an aside, I have been doing my darndest to be consistently indifferent to the growing number of alcoholics I have to deal with in the business world. lorrwillhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12671379391189827831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-39576695213439259092009-12-14T14:49:39.626-06:002009-12-14T14:49:39.626-06:00Tom, I'm intimately familiar with the "go...Tom, I'm intimately familiar with the "gotcha" form of questioning because I used to do it myself, back in Arizona days, before I got interested in these things. One graduate student in particular was a vegetarian but wore a leather jacket. I pointed this out (with "gotcha" tone) and he said (wisely) "yes, what about it?" Probably if I had said it in a Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-69101824743377924822009-12-14T14:25:41.038-06:002009-12-14T14:25:41.038-06:00Jean wrote:
"Everyone who's made dietary...Jean wrote:<br /><br />"Everyone who's made dietary changes for ethical reasons has encountered the same reaction from omnivores. But do you wear leather? But do you eat fish? But do you eat eggs?...If you're a vegetarian, you get this kind of reaction from omnivores all the time. There's no question what the motive is--to dismiss the whole argument for giving up anything. Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05074257624733067171noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-79438080355651940962009-12-14T11:18:33.511-06:002009-12-14T11:18:33.511-06:00I'm not so wild about purified messengers: t...I'm not so wild about purified messengers: they make for great or not-so-great poetry, but I'm more interested in messengers who show me realistic paths for living a better life.s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-27636428860026742212009-12-14T10:59:58.714-06:002009-12-14T10:59:58.714-06:00Erin, I have a perfectly good grip on the facts, s...Erin, I have a perfectly good grip on the facts, so it's not necessary to recite them. The question is whether omnivores and vegans should be taunting and shaming vegetarians for inconsistency. I think not, for the reasons given. Perhaps you'd like to take a moment to think about those reasons?Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-12366306245759702072009-12-14T10:48:09.268-06:002009-12-14T10:48:09.268-06:00milk and eggs are not cruelty free. leather, wool...milk and eggs are not cruelty free. leather, wool, and silk are not cruelty free. all those animals live short lives of horrid suffering and captivity and ultimately end up in cheap tv dinners, tacky sweatshop clothing, and on fast food menus. did you know that the milk industry IS the veal industry? these are simply the facts. how exactly does being factual equate with being militant? or is Erinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12586385003300931467noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-52150571738951551692009-12-14T10:45:04.782-06:002009-12-14T10:45:04.782-06:00There are very different ways to shame. I have ha...There are very different ways to shame. I have had students ask me why I do X--in a sincere way. It has made me wonder whether I should keep doing X. I fact, I have changed my habits in that way several times. I am open to change (and I would say non-defensive). <br /><br />It is another thing to use "you're not a vegan" as a competitive weapon, as a way of showing who are the &Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-63242825093890767092009-12-14T10:28:02.192-06:002009-12-14T10:28:02.192-06:00I think a little taunting and shaming can be good ...I think a little taunting and shaming can be good in theory. But it's pretty easy to go over the line--and when you do, it's likely that you've done some damage to your own cause. Better to err on the side of more gentle rhetoric? Lots of disagreement on this one. This is one area where we recapitulate the new atheist/accomodationist issue.Faustnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-11930256406839178792009-12-14T10:17:04.376-06:002009-12-14T10:17:04.376-06:00I agree about the value of "purified" me...I agree about the value of "purified" messengers, but think they make a mistake when they deliver the message by taunting and shaming the less pure.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-3621696866463780542009-12-14T10:05:26.844-06:002009-12-14T10:05:26.844-06:00Francionegans?
I think Dominic raises good points...Francionegans?<br /><br />I think Dominic raises good points. Of central importance is #2. I think a lot of people feel like they "can't" switch. Or that it would be extremely difficult. This difficulty is for lots of reasons: taste, social group, habit, special diet conditions etc. <br /><br />Once you find someone's dirtly little secret, the place where their addiction to Faustnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-47613534707449797372009-12-14T09:08:41.522-06:002009-12-14T09:08:41.522-06:00Dom, That guy definitely goes in the idiot file, a...Dom, That guy definitely goes in the idiot file, along with AA Gill. Yet the headline did sort of speak to me. "Why are these vegans sent to plague us?" There is something definitely locust like about the angry vegans who have been plaguing me since I criticized you-know-who. (Hence the need for moderation at this blog--very tiresome.) <br /><br />Then again--maybe I shouldn't Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-20307906106162142442009-12-14T08:49:05.547-06:002009-12-14T08:49:05.547-06:00Yes, there are lots of ways to use considerations ...Yes, there are lots of ways to use considerations of consistency to persuade people of things or change your own mind or behavior...so by all means, let's not rule it out!<br /><br />I think the people attacking Foer have a rather extreme view about consistency as a moral virtue and inconsistency as a vice. The omnivores think that convicting Foer of the vice of inconsistency completely Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-39584904329225753172009-12-14T08:43:00.538-06:002009-12-14T08:43:00.538-06:00sorry meant to add in link to this dreadful editor...sorry meant to add in link to this dreadful editorial in an Australian newspaper<br />http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/why-are-these-vegans-sent-to-plague-us-20090328-9esz.html<br /><br />(example of ad hominem ad nauseam)<br /><br />DUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11482806268276089591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-75221540466783976142009-12-14T04:20:26.182-06:002009-12-14T04:20:26.182-06:00The consistency argument can be used in a number o...The consistency argument can be used in a number of different ways. <br />I think most often it is not coherent, and can be criticised in the way that you suggest Jean. (It strikes me as the worst sort of ad hominem argument against vegetarians. Almost as bad as this) But here are a couple of ways of constructing it that are somewhat more robust.<br />1. The value of personal preference or tasteUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11482806268276089591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-47677738748889786312009-12-13T18:56:28.542-06:002009-12-13T18:56:28.542-06:00"The obsession with consistency hampers all s..."The obsession with consistency hampers all sorts of efforts people make to do good". Very true. People are not consistent or coherent: arguments are coherent or consistent. To speak of people being consistent is almost a category error.s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.com