tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post2706382256670235407..comments2023-10-14T09:40:06.690-05:00Comments on Jean Kazez: Do I HAVE To Be a Vegan?Jean Kazezhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-41716112403659460832010-03-05T13:40:51.779-06:002010-03-05T13:40:51.779-06:00Thanks, I'm glad you thought so.
I hate losi...Thanks, I'm glad you thought so. <br /><br />I hate losing posts ton internet crashes. I write my posts in word docs if they are going to be longer than 3 paragraphs now. <br /><br />So to be brief:<br /><br />I do get what the "point of view of the universe" is supposed to mean, i.e. that it's about adopting impersonal standards. But I still think it should still be Faustnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-79596114856520675852010-03-04T08:29:40.501-06:002010-03-04T08:29:40.501-06:00Faust, Great summary. I just responded at length, ...Faust, Great summary. I just responded at length, and accidentally deleted the whole thing. So--to be brief..<br /><br />I think the point of view of the universe is just what you get when you realize that no person (or animal) is "special." So--I want X, you also want X, what should we do? If I remain within my point point of view, I might conclude "grab it fast." But whenJean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-12235171716183117962010-03-03T21:00:30.010-06:002010-03-03T21:00:30.010-06:00But it does seem that some types of morality have ...But it does seem that some types of morality have so much weight that no forgiveness is possible when a given agent fails to do what is required. Jean suggests that one possible way of thinking about these cases is under the rubric of “obvious vs. not-obvious oughts.” It’s obvious I have to save the drowning baby from the shallow puddle, but maybe not obvious that I shouldn’t buy that carton of Fausthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14221763658202924449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-65947384991418509872010-03-03T20:59:11.025-06:002010-03-03T20:59:11.025-06:00I've been thinking about this thread a lot, an...I've been thinking about this thread a lot, and I think it has helped me understand better some of my metaethical notions and the way they relate to the "puzzle" in question. <br /><br />Most people here accept the notion of a "point of view of the universe." I think this notion is a useful fiction, but that "the universe" has about as much of a point of view as Fausthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14221763658202924449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-42511603613287193682010-03-03T15:15:26.894-06:002010-03-03T15:15:26.894-06:00Wayne, Don't feel bad about suggesting the boo...Wayne, Don't feel bad about suggesting the book. We've had lots of fun with it--it's provoked lots and lots of dinner table conversations. Interesting ones! There's one recipe so far I like a lot, and it turns out the dip I made for a party mellowed nicely and was a big hit. I am still trying things from it and it's making me think hard about this taste issue!Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-56272811386523050592010-03-03T15:07:59.509-06:002010-03-03T15:07:59.509-06:00Hmmm I feel kinda bad that the veganomicon is lett...Hmmm I feel kinda bad that the veganomicon is letting you down, since I suggested it. I have to admit though, that I haven't cooked through the book. I pick and choose what sounds really appealing to me. Ingredients appeal to me more than pictures, so thats where I focus in choosing...<br /><br />When I think of vegan food, I don't think tastelessness.... I think, "I need to seek Waynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08627147979307495870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-74744256575771314232010-03-03T08:43:10.033-06:002010-03-03T08:43:10.033-06:00Okay, I'll try it. I haven't give up yet o...Okay, I'll try it. I haven't give up yet on the book, but perhaps just need pointers! <br /><br />I haven't seen the other author--will look next time I'm in a bookstore. It's probably time for me to expand my horizons.Jean Kazeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-59738872883161890322010-03-02T21:36:37.318-06:002010-03-02T21:36:37.318-06:00Yeah it can be a taste thing. Have you tried Brya...Yeah it can be a taste thing. Have you tried Bryanna Clark Grogan's stuff? She has several cookbooks in different styles and also has a newsletter, which I highly recommend.<br /><br />Please make the chickpeas romanesco from veganomicon. mmmmmmmm! :)mehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04069632940893946342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-8531273135647876432010-03-02T15:18:06.549-06:002010-03-02T15:18:06.549-06:00I'm very sorry to say that Veganomicon is the ...I'm very sorry to say that Veganomicon is the vegan cookbook I have and that I'm finding so hit or miss. No offense--I love her writing.Jean Kazeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-46272220426235946762010-03-02T15:10:00.976-06:002010-03-02T15:10:00.976-06:00I still think you have a wrong cookbook problem. ...I still think you have a wrong cookbook problem. The moosewood cookbooks are great vegetarian cookbooks, but mediocre vegan ones. They're highly dairy dependent. Vegan is a different style of cooking- an art to use your metaphor. You need a cookbook by someone who is trained in that art. Check out Veganomicon or anything else by Isa.mehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04069632940893946342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-13876092828642192272010-03-02T13:21:40.402-06:002010-03-02T13:21:40.402-06:00When I praise/blame, I feel more that I'm tryi...When I praise/blame, I feel more that I'm trying to be fair to someone, rather than just influence them. (Maybe the praise/blame is in my own head, and so not in a position to influence). <br /><br />But consequences matter hugely, even if they're not all that matters. It's interesting how Peter Singer's (consequentialist) writing about both vegetarianism and poverty has become Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-72407336493813612502010-03-02T13:03:09.062-06:002010-03-02T13:03:09.062-06:00From a consequentialist perspective, praise and bl...From a consequentialist perspective, praise and blame should be doled out based on consequences as well. <br /><br />We praise if we think that will encourage future optimific behavior and blame to discourage suboptimal behavior.<br /><br />For example, we may blame someone for drinking milk with the hope that they will not do it again...<br /><br />We may even blame people for committing Diana Meinorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09789450332610383665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-21707714273902127392010-03-02T11:18:04.240-06:002010-03-02T11:18:04.240-06:00Wayne, I'm not saying the "expected"...Wayne, I'm not saying the "expected" determines the "required." Not at all. I'm saying once you're done figuring out what the moral requirements are, there's further work to be done concerning what we expect from ourselves and others.<br /><br />Take the Bugatti case. Unger made that argument, but does not actually make the massive contributions he considers Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-34599451992287656612010-03-02T10:43:04.176-06:002010-03-02T10:43:04.176-06:00Jean- No we can't draw the line between requi...Jean- No we can't draw the line between required and expected. Expectations are built along the lines of social norms. Its not expected that I'd be a vegetarian, even though I think we are required (on some level).<br /><br />I think the cardboard taste bud just makes the duty more difficult to achieve. And its unfortunate that its the case for John. It would also be equally Waynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08627147979307495870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-78939869483800027022010-03-02T07:35:24.771-06:002010-03-02T07:35:24.771-06:00Culinary history is long and is intrinsic to the c...Culinary history is long and is intrinsic to the cultures and climates of its origins. The great cuisines of China, Italy, and the Arab world have come down and spread out, sometimes by the travels of royalty or other big movements. It has been developed with the historical color one expects from science or art. There is almost a philosophy underlying the most basic ideas, such as the use of rtkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11565006451158819782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-58181268781906714272010-03-01T11:08:25.842-06:002010-03-01T11:08:25.842-06:00Wayne, I'm suggesting there are many ways of b...Wayne, I'm suggesting there are many ways of being "on the hook." So John's "on the hook," despite his taste preferences, but they enter into the way he should look at himself and we should look at him.<br /><br />I mean really--what if you had a strange brain that made you experience vegan food as tasting like cardboard? Should we really expect you to give up ALL Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-52807558542953442562010-03-01T10:52:59.303-06:002010-03-01T10:52:59.303-06:00I think this is a fairly easy question.... but the...I think this is a fairly easy question.... but then again I've got heavy consequentialist leanings. Sometimes morality demands much of us, things that we don't like to do. That doesn't get us off the hook.Waynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08627147979307495870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-62408189110099042732010-03-01T09:13:00.628-06:002010-03-01T09:13:00.628-06:00I'm happy to look at this in consequentialist ...I'm happy to look at this in consequentialist terms and say that John should become a vegan, regardless of his pleasure loss. I was trying to raise a more nebulous question about "expectations"-- how John sees himself, how we see John, how we should feel about him, how we should treat him, etc.<br /><br />It is not enough to resolve strictly moral questions, especially if you'Jean Kazeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-38002258758176601962010-03-01T09:04:43.532-06:002010-03-01T09:04:43.532-06:00Yes - I think Dominic has it right.
We may not co...Yes - I think Dominic has it right.<br /><br />We may not condemn John too harshly because he may in fact be making a greater effort than others to which veganism comes more easily. He may be of high moral character...but being of the highest moral character generally doesn't preclude the commissio of some morally wrong actions.<br /><br />The example of poverty relief is a good one. It is Diana Meinorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09789450332610383665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-91935992749632712252010-03-01T08:53:22.433-06:002010-03-01T08:53:22.433-06:00I think I agree with Ian that how others behave is...I think I agree with Ian that how others behave is largely irrelevant to the question of what John *ought* to do.<br /><br />There is a distinction that is often made between our judgements about actions and our judgements about agents. When we talk about blame, exculpation or guilt it is often the latter that we are getting at. <br />Perhaps what Jean is referring to is about our judgement of Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11482806268276089591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-24886091087361922222010-03-01T08:41:32.851-06:002010-03-01T08:41:32.851-06:00I am indeed, as you say, sticking with "the p...I am indeed, as you say, sticking with "the point of view of the universe"...that is so long as the question we are trying to answer is a moral question: what morally ought John do given his peculiar position?<br /><br />We can depart from "the point of view of the universe" if we want to consider other questions such as: what do we think John will in fact do? what do we thinkDiana Meinorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09789450332610383665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-70248460116652082802010-03-01T08:20:44.656-06:002010-03-01T08:20:44.656-06:00Faust,
I think your two continua help explain ex...Faust, <br /><br />I think your two continua help explain exactly what is going on in this debate. Some of the disagreement is about how much taste reduction is involved in becoming vegan. Much of the disagreement is about the moral wrongness in eating meat. I think Jean is right to push the taste question as far as it can logically go - since in that way we can get a sense for just how morally Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11482806268276089591noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-90676176583349327592010-03-01T07:48:34.563-06:002010-03-01T07:48:34.563-06:00Ian, I think you are simply sticking with that hig...Ian, I think you are simply sticking with that highly objective "point of view of the universe" and not allowing yourself to respond to John with any empathy with his point of view. Maybe that's good of you...but possibly you are missing something.<br /><br />As to a pedophile equivalent of John--you really have to imagine not just a pedophile, but a pedophile in a world extremely Jean Kazeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-91363680096036865892010-03-01T07:01:26.997-06:002010-03-01T07:01:26.997-06:00Jean -
I would be reluctant to suggest that some...Jean - <br /><br />I would be reluctant to suggest that someone need to accept death before consuming animal products but I would suggest that one would be required to accept a significantly reduced state of overall health and perhaps a shortened lifespan prior to the consumption of animal products being justified.<br /><br />Regarding the possiblity that all food without animal products actuallyDiana Meinorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09789450332610383665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-87576295466093978762010-02-28T19:02:34.750-06:002010-02-28T19:02:34.750-06:00Hmm. Maybe some notion of animals having lower st...Hmm. Maybe some notion of animals having lower status than humans is creeping into my reasoning, but I think just about everyone does believe that in one form or another, and it will creep into just about everyone's reasoning. People who think they're utterly egalitarian just aren't thinking things through...imho!<br /><br />For example--take health reasons. Just about anyone will Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.com