tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post2120488805053968513..comments2023-10-14T09:40:06.690-05:00Comments on Jean Kazez: JeffJean Kazezhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-74813674329412073962012-07-18T05:13:44.999-05:002012-07-18T05:13:44.999-05:00Perhaps people tend to think that the parents'...Perhaps people tend to think that the parents' choices are wrong because they read the parents' attitude as "I'm going to keep on having my fun, even if it results in a child coming into the world with a disadvantage." It's true that simply avoiding the "dangerous fun" wouldn't result in exactly the same child, minus the harm. In the thought experiment, Gareth Channoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-11231834111392839302012-07-17T07:50:00.689-05:002012-07-17T07:50:00.689-05:00"if you're taking a teratogenic drug, you...<i>"if you're taking a teratogenic drug, you can go ahead and conceive rather than waiting a few months until you're not taking it, even if the result will be a child with severe problems"<br />"The result would likely be an abortion".</i><br /><br />Consider the more common situation of falling pregnant over the age of 35, with its concomitant increase in Downs.David Duffyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12142997170025811780noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-24695790858957858652012-07-17T02:20:47.770-05:002012-07-17T02:20:47.770-05:00I think it is you who has misjudged what leads to ...I think it is you who has misjudged what leads to extremely strange conclusions - it is those who believe in the importance of the opinions of non-existent beings who fly planes into buildings, who decide that other people's sex lives and genitals are any of their business, who think that drawings of historical figures are important enough to warrant death.<br /><br /><i>"it would mean March Harehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13116034158087704885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-46264091134289084842012-07-16T11:04:14.181-05:002012-07-16T11:04:14.181-05:00You can bite the bullet if you like, but the notio...You can bite the bullet if you like, but the notion that we needn't think about not-yet-existent people leads to all sorts of extremely strange conclusions. For example, it would mean we had no duties to people 100 years from now, so can heat up the planet as our hearts desire. Another example: if you're taking a teratogenic drug, you can go ahead and conceive rather than waiting a few Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-36935142251500800422012-07-16T03:48:45.745-05:002012-07-16T03:48:45.745-05:00We cannot ever take into account the wishes or har...We cannot ever take into account the wishes or harm to non-existent creatures when compared to even the slightest actual well being of actual people.<br /><br />It really is that simple.<br /><br />Sex pill people, have at it. Come back and make a case (probably for abortion) when you are pregnant.<br /><br />Jeff, you are lucky that your wife is so understanding, she is a fully informed (if March Harehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13116034158087704885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-5654302112506949892012-07-13T04:10:08.962-05:002012-07-13T04:10:08.962-05:00Jean, I now see the point you were making, and I a...Jean, I now see the point you were making, and I agree that the cases <i>are</i> appropriately parallel regarding the question of "How can it be bad at all to cause a child to exist?"greg byshenknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-42003545794861555502012-07-12T02:59:53.881-05:002012-07-12T02:59:53.881-05:00Intuitively the root issue seems to be a problem o...Intuitively the root issue seems to be a problem of fairness (à la Rawls) where we increase someone's pleasure by harming someone else (even if as side effect, but I can't buy into the distinction made by the "double effect doctrine"). <br /><br />The choice among "different people" scenarios is already puzzling enough, and I don't see how adding a "fairness&Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-2607146155524708072012-07-11T18:19:45.484-05:002012-07-11T18:19:45.484-05:00"You assume that Jeff and Michelle are harmin...<i>"You assume that Jeff and Michelle are harming their premature babies, but it's not clear that's so, if the alternative is for them not to exist at all. That's what makes this case puzzling (as I explained above)</i><br /><br />You're right, of course. I apologize, Jean. I read your post too hastily. Thanks for the correction!Paul Sunstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02462598852553696040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-69809929612072785462012-07-11T18:13:07.987-05:002012-07-11T18:13:07.987-05:00Greg, I quoted more of the article than necessary,...Greg, I quoted more of the article than necessary, just because it was amusing. The pregnancy is not related to the fetish--if by that you mean enjoying breast milk. It's related to Jeff's enjoying sex without contraception more, so not letting his wife use contraceptives.<br /><br />I grant, there are a bunch of differences here. The sex pill is the direct cause of the abnormality in Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-82777345150239099092012-07-11T15:24:01.892-05:002012-07-11T15:24:01.892-05:00The problem with the supposed parallel of the &quo...The problem with the supposed parallel of the "Jeff" case is that, as I noted, the births being premature do not seem to be at all related to their fetish. Certainly they are the result of the parents' sexual activity, but their <i>being premature</i> seems to be unrelated. Additionally, the risks of additional pregnancies are to Michelle, who is a consenting (seemingly) participantgreg byshenknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-49780978847391867112012-07-11T13:34:08.901-05:002012-07-11T13:34:08.901-05:00Jeff's (and Michelle's) behavior seems to ...Jeff's (and Michelle's) behavior seems to violate the principle that we are free to do as we please so long as it harms no one but ourselves -- or those who are informed, consenting partners of ours. The premature babies are harmed by Jeff's and Michelle's actions, but they are neither informed nor consenting to the harm. At least, that would be my guess.Paul Sunstonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02462598852553696040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-61076926983048387842012-07-11T12:51:19.984-05:002012-07-11T12:51:19.984-05:00In the original thought experiment I describe the ...In the original thought experiment I describe the abnormality as one like having a missing eyebrow or an extra finger--so, minor, but negative. The couple gets extra sexual pleasure from taking the pill. If they didn't take the pill, that child wouldn't have existed at all (because the conditions of conception would have been slightly different), but another would have.<br /><br />In theJean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-78961282589779501462012-07-11T12:33:17.069-05:002012-07-11T12:33:17.069-05:00It strikes me that the thought experiment case dep...It strikes me that the thought experiment case depends a great deal on the <i>sort</i> of "abnormality" in question. Suppose that the children of parents who took the pill ended up being slightly abnormally smart; would you still object? If the "abnormality" was something that would or could <i>harm</i> the offspring, then the matter would be quite different, and our greg byshenknoreply@blogger.com