tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post204416642339952176..comments2023-10-14T09:40:06.690-05:00Comments on Jean Kazez: The Perfectly Humane FarmJean Kazezhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-41505039548866634522009-12-14T17:00:39.931-06:002009-12-14T17:00:39.931-06:00Humane eggs and dairy are virtually impossible at ...Humane eggs and dairy are virtually impossible at the present time. In nature, hens lay enough eggs to propagate the species and occasionally ingest some themselves; cows produce enough milk for their young (and have babies less often than they do on dairy farms); there is not enough left over for a dairy industry. IOW, hens' and cows' bodies were not designed to produce so much Garyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17626932920628223507noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-46214407981758512322009-12-10T18:42:23.999-06:002009-12-10T18:42:23.999-06:00Monty Python: Best Comedey Troop Ever.Monty Python: Best Comedey Troop Ever.Faustnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-13615292823537567492009-12-10T17:39:51.510-06:002009-12-10T17:39:51.510-06:00Wayne, That clip is hilarious--a great way to expl...Wayne, That clip is hilarious--a great way to explain to students what's wrong with trying to rebut someone by simply saying something different. I think I'm going to show it to my next class (we've got cool high tech classrooms).Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-73289264248451255682009-12-10T16:34:42.379-06:002009-12-10T16:34:42.379-06:00Correct. The abolitionists should have argued t...Correct. The abolitionists should have argued that the majority of people would sign on for the wrongness of 1 and 2. <br />In any case, arguing with them is a bit like teaching chess to my 8 year-old step-son. I'm not a good chess player, but I'm constantly telling him: "I wouldn't make that move if I were you".s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-27719944353313577062009-12-10T16:20:02.043-06:002009-12-10T16:20:02.043-06:00Actually, I didn't say that people aren't ...Actually, I didn't say that people aren't going to give up meat. I said they aren't going to steadily and confidently sign on for the wrongness of (1) and (2). They instinctively care about the suffering of animals, and might do things differently (maybe even give up meat) but seeing fundamental wrongness in (1) and (2) is another matter.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-35185197165004196662009-12-10T16:10:40.688-06:002009-12-10T16:10:40.688-06:00The abolitionists are good at painting themselves ...The abolitionists are good at painting themselves into a corner.<br />Actually, they should have attacked your premise that most people are not going to give up eating meat as false. I agree with you that most people are not going to give up eating meat, but there is no way to prove that. Extrapolation from the current curve is not an accurate way to make predictions about the future: in s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-7040794015890841292009-12-10T13:14:54.411-06:002009-12-10T13:14:54.411-06:00This sort of objection takes lots of forms and so ...This sort of objection takes lots of forms and so gets lots of responses. <br /><br />1. If animals can do it, we can do it. (well, no, obviously a bad argument).<br /><br />2. If we stop ourselves from being predators, then consistency says we have to stop animals too (well, no, because even if it's "the same," we don't have the resources to spread around vegan lion chow, Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-42168642238930871262009-12-10T13:05:00.104-06:002009-12-10T13:05:00.104-06:00Brandon- There's a difference between engagin...Brandon- There's a difference between engaging in a dialogue with someone, and simply throwing out an opposing position. <br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM<br />You're playing John Cleese.Waynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08627147979307495870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-23429274538124238582009-12-10T12:59:53.745-06:002009-12-10T12:59:53.745-06:00More on 1) and 2):
In your update you suggest tha...More on 1) and 2):<br /><br />In your update you suggest that many people are responsive to suffering, but not 1 and 2. I won't speak to to 2), but I think the reason people aren't responsive to 1) is this: <br /><br />Predation is a big part of the natural world, and people have predatory capacities and inclinations. The suggestion that we never eat meat (or use animal products) is the Faustnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-19319286956440768032009-12-10T12:04:48.827-06:002009-12-10T12:04:48.827-06:00No, and now you're breaking another part of th...No, and now you're breaking another part of the comment policy--you're talking about the way I moderate this blog.<br /><br />I made arguments in the post. You responded to absolutely none of them. You simply repeated abolitionist talking points.<br /><br />It's very easy to throw around the word "speciesism." You don't understand the meaning of the word if you think Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-5624339238151309432009-12-10T11:45:16.137-06:002009-12-10T11:45:16.137-06:00Is not your comment ideological? Your ideology pro...Is not your comment ideological? Your ideology promotes speciesism, mine is opposing speciesism. To say your comments are unbiased or objective is to mislead. I responded to your blog post.Brandon Beckerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05629813999047895841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-83865685012314854702009-12-10T11:43:30.379-06:002009-12-10T11:43:30.379-06:00I'm publishing Brandon's comment just to u...I'm publishing Brandon's comment just to use it as exhibit A--<br /><br />This is a completely ideological comment. There's no engagement with the post or previous comments or previous posts. There's just repetition of Abolitonist talking points. So...no more! I won't publish comments like this in the future. Please read the comment policy.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-89448183220204704092009-12-10T11:33:56.729-06:002009-12-10T11:33:56.729-06:00Humane farming means growing plants, ideally vegan...Humane farming means growing plants, ideally vegan organic. We shouldn't even call exploiting other animals for food as "farming." It's slavery: these animals are legally held as property, treated as resources to have their bodies violated through reproductive manipulation, bodily secretions stolen, and lives violently taken in the slaughterhouse before their natural lifespans. Brandon Beckerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05629813999047895841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-28880754744870480292009-12-10T11:31:40.882-06:002009-12-10T11:31:40.882-06:00Reasonable people certainly can disagree. Two pe...Reasonable people certainly can disagree. Two perfectly reasonable doctors can disagree about what drug should be used to deal with a certain illness. Actually, it may be that both drugs successfully deal with said illness.s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-4991183541178680122009-12-10T11:16:25.686-06:002009-12-10T11:16:25.686-06:00Faust, I completely agree. I ate the eggs that ca...Faust, I completely agree. I ate the eggs that came from those Hawaiian chickens. I can be completely sure what their lives were like. I shouldn't come home, buy cage-free eggs at the grocery store and be so foolish as to think those chickens lived the same life as the Hawaiian chickens. Just not so. <br /><br />My point is just to isolate problems (1) and (2) and separate them from Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-66531619362177430462009-12-10T10:51:09.529-06:002009-12-10T10:51:09.529-06:00But reasonable people can't disagree! One of ...But reasonable people can't disagree! One of them must be unreasonable. (Still one of the best essay's I've read in a long time.)<br /><br />I think the painless death might be an oxymoron. <br /><br />Do you think its a problem that humanely raised meat is difficult to obtain? I agree with you that we should be advocates of humanely raised meat, but does that product really existWaynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08627147979307495870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-1959610253855513812009-12-10T10:49:36.205-06:002009-12-10T10:49:36.205-06:00This seems to me a solid summation, and one that I...This seems to me a solid summation, and one that I can sign on to. I'll add just one little bit here from Francione. On his podcast with Steiner he says (paraphrase):<br /><br />"Some people think that the way to solve the problems with humane farming is more humane farming, I know it's hard to believe--but that's what they say." <br /><br />He clearly thought this was an Faustnoreply@blogger.com