tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post1558482275461827780..comments2023-10-14T09:40:06.690-05:00Comments on Jean Kazez: CompatibilismJean Kazezhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-9213013154390842010-07-25T12:54:32.372-05:002010-07-25T12:54:32.372-05:00Nope. It's the standard line among accommodati...Nope. It's the standard line among accommodationists. Nisbet, BioLogos, the authors of "Comment is Free", etc.Benjamin S Nelsonhttp://hownottowinawar.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-85010784007083146802010-07-25T12:06:47.745-05:002010-07-25T12:06:47.745-05:00Benjamin, When you talked about accommodationists ...Benjamin, When you talked about accommodationists putting atheists in basements (7/23, 11:23 am), what could you have meant besides Mooney and all the standard worries about him criticizing Myers, banning Benson, questioning Coyne's review, etc etc etc? So I think you did bring him up. I just think all that stuff has already been discussed ad nauseum here and elsewhere.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-17563699764269811212010-07-25T11:40:38.905-05:002010-07-25T11:40:38.905-05:00If you like. But you brought up Mooney, so I thoug...If you like. But you brought up Mooney, so I thought I'd explain what's going on from the other side.<br /><br />Also thanks for that first link. On a brief re-reading, I still believe pretty much all I said there. Definitely saves from having to repeat!Benjamin S Nelsonhttp://hownottowinawar.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-27293912320499468912010-07-25T09:42:27.633-05:002010-07-25T09:42:27.633-05:00Don't want to wrangle about endless details, b...Don't want to wrangle about endless details, but I have to say--I don't read any of this as you do. See here--<br /><br />http://kazez.blogspot.com/2009/08/strategic-self-restraint.html<br /><br />http://kazez.blogspot.com/2009/07/chris-mooneys-apostasy.html<br /><br />Let's maybe drop the subject now, as I don't want to host any of the weird Mooney eviscerating that goes on at Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-23160253088856161112010-07-25T09:21:09.338-05:002010-07-25T09:21:09.338-05:00For sure, it's not pleasant. But he's a gr...For sure, it's not pleasant. But he's a grown man (and Kirshenbaum is a grown woman) and they published their work in a public forum. If this is how they've chosen to go about their project, then they're legitimately subject to criticism.<br /><br />Of course, if audiences are more than just critical, we ought to try to ratchet them down a peg. And that's easier in some forumsBenjamin S Nelsonhttp://hownottowinawar.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-83207838939825713572010-07-25T08:58:35.770-05:002010-07-25T08:58:35.770-05:00Ben: I understand what you're saying. I'...Ben: I understand what you're saying. I've participated in movements and marches myself, although the shouting gets to me. It especially gets to me when the shouting singles out one specific individual, as if Lyndon Johnson (hey, hey, LBJ, how many kids did you kill today) or George W. Bush in your day, were responsible for all the evil in the world. I've long thought s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-29312106100747833212010-07-24T21:48:37.635-05:002010-07-24T21:48:37.635-05:00Amos, I used to be agoraphobic, so I know that fee...Amos, I used to be agoraphobic, so I know that feeling all too well. Couldn't even order a pizza over the phone without feeling like a wreck. I still have "the shakes" -- anxiety, panic attacks going to movies. I'm even nervous being around people I love, which even led to recent private tragedy recently. So I understand the fear. I despise and resent it because of how it limitsBenjamin S Nelsonhttp://hownottowinawar.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-84225800960918720762010-07-24T19:12:02.468-05:002010-07-24T19:12:02.468-05:00Hello Ben: It's nice to hear your point of v...Hello Ben: It's nice to hear your point of view. <br /><br />However, when I dare to glance at one known New Atheist blog, I'm frightened.<br /><br />I feel as if I were in the presence of a heresy hunt, of an angry lynch mob, of Orwell's daily hate session. Perhaps I'm overly sensitive, but others seem to feel the same way. <br /><br />It freaks me out to see such s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-68852097017887075022010-07-24T18:50:38.875-05:002010-07-24T18:50:38.875-05:00Sure, but journalists and Coyne and the rest don&#...Sure, but journalists and Coyne and the rest don't tell people how to communicate. Coyne tells us why evolution is true, journalists like Matt Taibbi tell us why Wall Street is corrupt, PZ Myers gives us anti-religious rants. If they stop doing those things, we're in a place to complain. In the same way, if Mooney is supposed to be telling scientists how to communicate, it means I pretty Benjamin S Nelsonhttp://hownottowinawar.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-37815556979140827942010-07-24T18:42:20.184-05:002010-07-24T18:42:20.184-05:00I see most of that very differently, but it would ...I see most of that very differently, but it would take too long to explain and offer evidence. Re: "come down from the mountain" style. I get your point, but I do think that's very common in successful journalists and busy people. I see it all over the place. I like Jerry Coyne's blog a lot, but he "comes down" very little too. What makes that OK is that he attracts Jean Kazeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-33248695952660606992010-07-24T18:17:59.689-05:002010-07-24T18:17:59.689-05:00(The above was to amos.)
Jean, maybe they are ju...(The above was to amos.) <br /><br />Jean, maybe they are just busy. But there are a few things that concern me. <br />(a) I wonder what the point of a blog is if not a forum for answering plausible questions every so often. <br />(b) I don't see what kind of conversation they hope to have if their primary ambition is to sell the book, and not discuss its contents on their home turf. <br />(cBenjamin S Nelsonhttp://hownottowinawar.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-87478033057559567182010-07-24T18:00:26.165-05:002010-07-24T18:00:26.165-05:00A little bit. The sharp focus on Mooney's beha...A little bit. The sharp focus on Mooney's behavior and arguments throughout all this is strange, because Sheril Kirshenbaum is equally culpable when it comes to the stuff I'm talking about. So I've been at pains throughout the ordeal to criticize her (usually less visible) behavior in moderating the Intersection. Still, I think after some initial resistance, people have gradually comeBenjamin S Nelsonhttp://hownottowinawar.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-21989377019755708562010-07-24T17:48:24.544-05:002010-07-24T17:48:24.544-05:00Ben, I think when their book came out they wrote l...Ben, I think when their book came out they wrote lots and lots of posts that were very responsive to criticism. So it would not be fair to say the blog is unresponsive. What IS true is that for the most part they don't get involved in the comment section. You can't really go there and have a conversation. But really, I think that's a sign that these people are busy, successful Jean Kazeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-35796451692006940522010-07-24T13:36:35.690-05:002010-07-24T13:36:35.690-05:00Ben: You're a sane person, which isn't ...Ben: You're a sane person, which isn't the case with everyone involved in this debate. Mooney may well be the most mediocre, opportunist, mercenary author ever to write a book, although I doubt it, since many mediocre, opportunist and mediocre persons write books every year. However, don't you sense that there is a personal "get Mooney" crusade, promoted by s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-19747133260025741092010-07-24T13:03:50.902-05:002010-07-24T13:03:50.902-05:00Jean, at first, I felt the same way. And I want to...Jean, at first, I felt the same way. And I want to have that conversation. But I've gradually lowered my opinion over the past year because it's clear to me that he's not trying to have that conversation at all, online. So in late June I wrote: "From what I can tell, Mooney advocates cooperative discourse. He did not tell people to “shut up”. At worst, he implied that people Benjamin S Nelsonhttp://hownottowinawar.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-47717441969014460432010-07-24T11:07:13.133-05:002010-07-24T11:07:13.133-05:00Benjamin, I have experienced and resented being &q...Benjamin, I have experienced and resented being "locked in the basement" for being an atheist...actually, quite a lot. So I understand the worry. I just don't think it's true that other perfectly open atheists, like Chris Mooney, are putting anyone in the basement when they try to have a conversation about priorities, communication, tone, etc.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-2837072373855121502010-07-24T10:15:38.946-05:002010-07-24T10:15:38.946-05:00Faust, you've hit the bullseye. For all the ta...Faust, you've hit the bullseye. For all the talk about civility and that kind of thing, it's all about what constitutes a fair analysis. That's a substantive dispute that craves serious attention.<br /><br />I can't speak to Harris because I haven't read his work. But Dawkins and Hitchens strike me as providing plausible analyses. I don't think they have got it entirely Benjamin S Nelsonhttp://hownottowinawar.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-48226739804317898912010-07-23T17:35:05.150-05:002010-07-23T17:35:05.150-05:00Faust, Salvaging something from religion doesn...Faust, Salvaging something from religion doesn't seem like a dastardly enterprise, though it doesn't really interest me personally (except as a "curiosity"--I did enjoy Johnston's book, in fact enough to get the next one). <br /><br />Benjamin, I think rumors of atheists locking each other in basements have been greatly exaggerated. This is like a debate Christians Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-90905079432169329202010-07-23T12:23:35.298-05:002010-07-23T12:23:35.298-05:00@Benjamin "So far, accommodationists haven...@Benjamin "So far, accommodationists haven't really cared to represent the atheist side of the science debate, civilly or otherwise."<br /><br />I can't speak for the online wars, because I find them somewhat tiresome, so I don't follow them in more than a passing way. But if by "not represnting atheists fairly" means "thinking that the kind of polemic Faustnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-61279240673063043772010-07-23T11:50:52.960-05:002010-07-23T11:50:52.960-05:00I can take both of your responses and say yes! exa...I can take both of your responses and say yes! exactly. By which I mean this:<br /><br />Let us say that there are versions of a thing called "religion" which can be salvaged from the supernaturalist mindset. If so then there are at least two approaches to getting rid of supernturalist religion (which is assumed to be wrongheaded as supernaturlism is :<br /><br />1. Define all religion Faustnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-27069018826356679102010-07-23T11:23:18.956-05:002010-07-23T11:23:18.956-05:00I think it's pretty clear why some people have...I think it's pretty clear why some people have problems with accommodationists. So far, accommodationists haven't really cared to represent the atheist side of the science debate, civilly or otherwise. Accommodationists treat atheists as if they were a private shame that can be kept locked in the basement.<br /><br />Of course, there are other issues, like the (in)compatibility of scienceBenjamin S Nelsonhttp://hownottowinawar.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-31664050644097814042010-07-23T11:10:14.961-05:002010-07-23T11:10:14.961-05:00Faust, All that makes sense and is interesting, bu...Faust, All that makes sense and is interesting, but re: #1. Isn't it possible that to a believer certain religious ideas have all the irresistibility and connection to morality that free will does? That's what I'm surmising. To a non-believer of course that's not so. <br /><br />Re 2: Yes, someone like Johnston is not on the anti-accommodationsts' radar, but if he were, Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-86252126945777371802010-07-23T10:37:10.376-05:002010-07-23T10:37:10.376-05:00"I'm not defending any of this, but rathe..."I'm not defending any of this, but rather just wondering why the basic project shouldn't enjoy the same respectability as compatibalism about free will and determinism."<br /><br />I don't think this is that hard to understand actually. There are two reasons:<br /><br />1. Free will/Determinism is a topic that is almost inescapable. We have pretty strong ideas about both Faustnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-25002117209744336832010-07-22T07:34:33.931-05:002010-07-22T07:34:33.931-05:00Amos, I think compatibilism about religion and sci...Amos, I think compatibilism about religion and science has to concern more than just the existence of God. It also concerns his role in the universe, what he is supposed to do/have done, etc. There are different types of compatibilism--one form plays around with the meaning of "God," another plays around with the meaning of "truth," etc etc. Depending on the form, more or Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-2538232637555313152010-07-21T16:40:37.547-05:002010-07-21T16:40:37.547-05:00I agree that some incompatibilities are in the pub...I agree that some incompatibilities are in the public domain (the ones you mention), but some aren't. For example, my liberal Jewish believer friends may have incompatible propositions in their heads, but it's literally no problem whatever for anyone but themselves.<br /><br />Re: determinism. The free will literature is complex. The sorts of indeterminacy you talk about don't seemJean Kazeznoreply@blogger.com