tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post864968194812830745..comments2023-10-14T09:40:06.690-05:00Comments on Jean Kazez: Tom Johnson Chapter 368Jean Kazezhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-77641298054230914002010-07-28T21:10:26.965-05:002010-07-28T21:10:26.965-05:00Amos, All that stuff about apologizing vs. saying ...Amos, All that stuff about apologizing vs. saying your sorry (9:48) was in reference to Deepak Shatty's comment above (7:19). That must have been puzzling.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-26627149485194761962010-07-28T09:50:43.639-05:002010-07-28T09:50:43.639-05:00ean: Absolutely no need to apologize. When I compa...ean: Absolutely no need to apologize. When I compared Ophelia to Ayn Rand, I did not expect her to send me kisses. I'm not an Ayn Rand fan myself, but a while ago, I read a long review of a biography of Ayn Rand and her sect, and it reminded me of B & W, a group of bright (almost entirely male) people, dominated by a brilliant, but closedminded and intolerant woman, a woman needing amosnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-19202834325328496342010-07-28T09:48:37.912-05:002010-07-28T09:48:37.912-05:00Amos, I've stopped reading B&W (my husband...Amos, I've stopped reading B&W (my husband got tired of it and blocked my access--very clever of him), but someone told me how you've been eviscerated over there. We are finding out what Ophelia is made of, aren't we?<br /><br />Anybody who's closely followed Ophelia's obsession with Mooney knows that it really is all about the banning. Don't know about the Ayn Rand Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-70039372099163885032010-07-26T23:20:39.206-05:002010-07-26T23:20:39.206-05:00@Jean Kazez
Calling someone "stupid" on...@Jean Kazez<br /><i><br />Calling someone "stupid" one on one is worse than calling them "stupid" in any of the other formats. </i><br />Interesting. I would think its the other way around. Calling someone stupid may be bad, but you get to deal with the consequences.Deepak Shettyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04324456947895848248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-19275225449528516312010-07-26T23:16:59.312-05:002010-07-26T23:16:59.312-05:00@Amos
Your original point was that every body make...@Amos<br />Your original point was that every body makes mistakes and even reputable journalists are duped. That's not the only thing under discussion. I cant quite figure out how your response addresses that, perhaps I am too young(Though my wife disagrees) to understand.<br /><br /><i>"with a series of worthwhile, although not entirely original, books"</i><br />Which is what everyDeepak Shettyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04324456947895848248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-22754144730996862602010-07-26T21:38:46.788-05:002010-07-26T21:38:46.788-05:00I do want to say one thing, though, and that is th...I do want to say one thing, though, and that is that every cloud has a silver lining.<br /><br />It was only because of all the specious fuss being kicked up ad nauseum that I found this blog, and also found the commentators Amos and Faust.<br /><br />I've had a great deal of interest in reading over Jean Kazez's other blog entries. I disagree with her on a great many things, from free Gurdurhttp://heathen-hub.com/blog.php?u=1noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-38467987529766202352010-07-26T21:34:39.074-05:002010-07-26T21:34:39.074-05:00Like Amos, I too find enormous parallels in politi...Like Amos, I too find enormous parallels in politics (and in fact, one way of looking at this all is through its political dimension, which of course is probably the most relevant dimension to hand). <br /><br />For me, though, the most pressing political analogy is the example of the Trotskyists, together with the abhorrent Totsykist tactics of counter-demonstrating against any Left protest, or Gurdurhttp://heathen-hub.com/blog.php?u=1noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-63704694618461606452010-07-26T20:48:52.902-05:002010-07-26T20:48:52.902-05:00Hello Deepak: I don't read or participate in...Hello Deepak: I don't read or participate in Chris Mooney's blog.<br />I'm not especially interested in science or science education: I'm a humanities or a history person myself. How did I get into this mess? First of all, I've followed Jean Kazez's blogging here and formerly in the TPM blog, and while I don't always agree with her or even like her, I s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-66411223790799243172010-07-26T19:18:44.727-05:002010-07-26T19:18:44.727-05:00@Amos
For me atleast, the problem lies in the way ...@Amos<br />For me atleast, the problem lies in the way Chris addressed the issue when the deception was revealed. His apology amounted to "Im sorry I was deceived" instead of directing his apology to the new atheists for this specific case. <br />The way comments and criticism are dealt with at the intersection don't help.Deepak Shettyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04324456947895848248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-67489616711678014412010-07-26T16:07:22.660-05:002010-07-26T16:07:22.660-05:00I really do think you've misunderstood. A sock...I really do think you've misunderstood. A sock puppet is a fabrication, like Elmo. Sock puppets don't tell the truth about themselves. TJ told plenty of truth about himself. He just also lied about what he'd witnessed.<br /><br />I don't owe anyone an apology. It really is just as simple as that.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-91725623052978730742010-07-26T15:57:07.240-05:002010-07-26T15:57:07.240-05:00I definitely don't understand you. If Coyne is...I definitely don't understand you. If Coyne is right, then TJ is only as real as the rest of the socks. The only clear thing we know about his identity turned out to be false -- that is, he didn't attend any relevant conference where that event happened. For most people, the substantial lie simply was his identity. Falsify the lie, you falsify the character.<br /><br />All this is Benjamin S Nelsonhttp://hownottowinawar.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-4568175112510395342010-07-26T11:32:50.354-05:002010-07-26T11:32:50.354-05:00Are you kidding?
I think you are not actually und...Are you kidding?<br /><br />I think you are not actually understanding what's been revealed. TJ is perfectly real, apart from the name (yes, it's a pseudonym), and much of what he said is true. He is no wholly fabricated sock puppet. William lied about that. What is false is TJ's allegation about overhearing atheists bashing religious people. Otherwise, he is truthful both about Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-55268792643735609252010-07-26T11:17:23.057-05:002010-07-26T11:17:23.057-05:00So now we know TJ isn't a pseudonym, because n...So now we know TJ isn't a pseudonym, because nothing in the story corresponds with the facts. <br /><br />Don't you think it would be appropriate to apologize for accusing people of being "gullible", of "[falling] in love with William", etc.? I don't doubt that you did what you thought was reasonable at the time. But it's also reasonable to acknowledge errors Benjamin S Nelsonhttp://hownottowinawar.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-67291887811845299842010-07-26T09:28:44.791-05:002010-07-26T09:28:44.791-05:00Not only did Woodward and Bernstein only use one s...Not only did Woodward and Bernstein only use one source, but also they had no way of knowing with certainty that Deep Throat wasn't feeding them false information or half-truths in order to destroy Nixon. Deep Throat could have been an agent of the Democratic Party, of Nixon's many political enemies or even of the Soviets.s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-67781215606341528502010-07-26T09:17:53.837-05:002010-07-26T09:17:53.837-05:00Speaking of watergate, I hope we can put to rest t...Speaking of watergate, I hope we can put to rest the silly idea that every story has to be corroborated by 2 eye witnesses. As far as I know, Woodward talked to Deep Throat, not Deep Throats.<br /><br />People think about journalistic ethics for approximately 10 seconds and then think they're experts. It's just strange and baffling.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-18438184956618128352010-07-26T07:49:30.797-05:002010-07-26T07:49:30.797-05:00Thinking of top reporters who were duped by the Bu...Thinking of top reporters who were duped by the Bush administration about Iraq, I recall Bob Woodward, the man who discovered Watergate. Woodward wrote a series of books lauding Bush's war policies, only to realize that he had been deceived, duped and fooled. Now, if a man of Woodward's intelligence, political knowledge and journalistic reputation lets himself be duped, the s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-59081787417397214072010-07-26T02:27:14.291-05:002010-07-26T02:27:14.291-05:00"Obstructing justice" is impeding an ong..."Obstructing justice" is impeding an ongoing investigation. I was doing no such thing by not reporting this student to his honor council. There was no ongoing investigation to impede. <br /><br />As for some duty to report--I see this as an internal matter. Making sure that some student conforms to the internal standards set by his university is not my responsibility. I may or may notJean Kazeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-42912239095633904722010-07-25T23:48:59.031-05:002010-07-25T23:48:59.031-05:00Jean Kazez wrote:
"Dave W. My intuition is t...Jean Kazez wrote:<br /><br />"Dave W. My intuition is that pursuing this would not be my responsibility. It would be different if I thought there was a crime involved--I don't."<br /><br />Well, that's a huge difference between you and I, then. I feel that we all have a duty to do our best to minimize antisocial behaviors whether they're criminal or not. (For example, Dave W.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12092834841145857131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-37786088453416662062010-07-25T23:12:19.769-05:002010-07-25T23:12:19.769-05:00Dave W. My intuition is that pursuing this would ...Dave W. My intuition is that pursuing this would not be my responsibility. It would be different if I thought there was a crime involved--I don't. It's only a code of conduct violation that's involved (if that), and it's up to each school to both define and pursue what they want in students. That's my gut feeling, anyway. Certainly accusing me of "obstruction of justice&Jean Kazeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-24710985168818510382010-07-25T22:49:43.202-05:002010-07-25T22:49:43.202-05:00This post was a response to Ophelia's. I was ...This post was a response to Ophelia's. I was expecting people to follow the link, see what she had said, then interpret me accordingly. So when I said "if there is a fraud, and we don't actually know for sure," I was responding to the fact that she seemed to think she knew for sure.<br /><br />I think if we can get away from what any specific person thought, the "status&Jean Kazeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-47348984891808272422010-07-25T22:48:39.791-05:002010-07-25T22:48:39.791-05:00Jean Kazez wrote:
"Dave W., You were telling...Jean Kazez wrote:<br /><br />"Dave W., You were telling me that I should report TJ to the honor board (or some such) at his university, and I do think that's unreasonable. Faculty at other universities don't have that responsibility."<br /><br />Well, I don't know what university it is we're talking about exactly (obviously), but the one that's been mentioned in Dave W.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12092834841145857131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-38140739108400492102010-07-25T22:23:57.194-05:002010-07-25T22:23:57.194-05:00I'm having to go through some real mental cont...I'm having to go through some real mental contortions to read that the way you're saying it was intended to be read. But, ok, if I work hard enough, I can do it. So let's move back a sentence. What was the purpose of the parenthetical "if there is [a fraud], and we don't actually know for sure"? How are we supposed to read that?<br /><br />I think it's possible you&#Josh L.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10821350551460137870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-62029159656260745792010-07-25T21:33:30.256-05:002010-07-25T21:33:30.256-05:00Dave W., You were telling me that I should report ...Dave W., You were telling me that I should report TJ to the honor board (or some such) at his university, and I do think that's unreasonable. Faculty at other universities don't have that responsibility. It's probably not an honor code violation either.<br /><br />As for the fact that I knew his adviser knew--this was something told to me in confidence. Now that it's common Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-10895601735723468912010-07-25T20:56:16.772-05:002010-07-25T20:56:16.772-05:00Everybody makes mistakes. Even Christopher Hitch...Everybody makes mistakes. Even Christopher Hitchens, so worshipped by the New Atheist set, was duped or let himself be duped by the Bush administration into supporting the disastrous and homicidal invasion of Iraq. Let me tell you, folks, the invasion of Iraq has produced a lot more real costs to real people, U.S. soldiers and civilians in Iraq (there was an article today about genetics. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-71672746333731817942010-07-25T20:34:29.319-05:002010-07-25T20:34:29.319-05:00Jean Kazez,
If, as you said over at Jerry Coyne&#...Jean Kazez,<br /><br />If, as you said over at Jerry Coyne's blog, you've "known all along" that "TJ's" advisor was aware of everything that TJ had been doing, why did you tell me on July 11th on "The Buddha Is Not Serious" that I was being totally unreasonable to think that reporting "TJ" to his university (without "outing" him) wouldDave W.https://www.blogger.com/profile/12092834841145857131noreply@blogger.com