tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post8496127790995135146..comments2023-10-14T09:40:06.690-05:00Comments on Jean Kazez: Have the new atheists become tiresome?Jean Kazezhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-41008922767773068712009-11-02T14:41:54.779-06:002009-11-02T14:41:54.779-06:00Hey this is awesome, have just started blogging an...Hey this is awesome, have just started blogging and taken a while to find better than the "adolescent atheist", its a nice way of putting it. Glad there are some atheists who aren't so angry and who don't see things so simply.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-67879559079340806132009-10-28T15:49:50.539-05:002009-10-28T15:49:50.539-05:00Ophelia: Thanks for the indirect compliment. Yo...Ophelia: Thanks for the indirect compliment. Your mind does work fast. In any case, I finally had a moment to go back and read your prior comment about Hitchens and you did not explain completely in your first post on the subject why you feel uncomfortable about his remarks, so my call for more clarity was justified.s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-65422569868633936092009-10-28T11:38:13.230-05:002009-10-28T11:38:13.230-05:00Mmph. Sure, amos. :- )Mmph. Sure, amos. :- )Ophelia Bensonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-52134099638410642692009-10-28T10:20:54.548-05:002009-10-28T10:20:54.548-05:00Ophelia: I'm just clarifying our positions. ...Ophelia: I'm just clarifying our positions. My mind works more slowly than yours.s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-57138788319485349362009-10-28T10:06:30.564-05:002009-10-28T10:06:30.564-05:00Well no, of course not, but I don't think I im...Well no, of course not, but I don't think I implied that.<br /><br />On the other hand - an NPR story, obviously, has a lot more influence than does a comment on a blog.<br /><br />amos I already said I wasn't crazy about Hitchens's remark, so why bring it in again?Ophelia Bensonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-46120917751120185852009-10-27T18:22:11.008-05:002009-10-27T18:22:11.008-05:00The distinction between a movement and an intellec...The distinction between a movement and an intellectual debate is useful. I think that's what sometimes throws me. I want debate, but what I get treated to (when I participate) is often more like movement rhetoric.<br /><br />OK--a symmetrical rule. I like that. But then, what is it? And can it really be true that all the rough treatment of religion at atheist blogs is really within the rulesJean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-32056152342352101522009-10-27T18:20:17.298-05:002009-10-27T18:20:17.298-05:00I agree that neither religion nor any other body o...I agree that neither religion nor any other body of ideas should be <br />exempt from frank criticism, but should they be treated with "ridicule, hatred, and contempt"? (Hitchens' word cited by Jean above) Perhaps some religions should be treated with ridicule, hatred and contempt, just as some ideologies: we both will probably agree that the Talibans and Nazism deserve nos. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-56449521691214166182009-10-27T17:58:46.129-05:002009-10-27T17:58:46.129-05:00Oh, and I missed something.
"take it that&#...Oh, and I missed something. <br /><br />"take it that's the kind of right you want to assert as well, but specifically when it comes to talking about religion. If it's a matter of talking about other topics, like atheism, then there's no comparable moral right (I assume you are saying)."<br /><br />No; on the contrary; and I don't really see why you assume that: I said: OBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-20968243386822847152009-10-27T16:30:24.704-05:002009-10-27T16:30:24.704-05:00"I take it that's the kind of right you w..."I take it that's the kind of right you want to assert as well"<br /><br />No, not really; I didn't like that way of putting it when I read the NPR story last week. I would call it a story, by the way, not a report - it got a lot wrong and it was very loaded - as stories about "new" atheists so often are.<br /><br />"If someone wants to understand the atheist OBhttp://www.butterfliesandwheels.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-60929046702446809672009-10-27T15:48:54.205-05:002009-10-27T15:48:54.205-05:00Jean: Maybe part of the problem with the new athe...Jean: Maybe part of the problem with the new atheists is that they haven't decided if they are an intellectual/philosophical tendency or a political movement. The rules for philosophical tendencies involve polite discourse and rational argument, while the rules for political movements involve lots of shouting of slogans and relentless attacks on your opponents.s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-58571259398420871732009-10-27T14:54:44.714-05:002009-10-27T14:54:44.714-05:00When I said "in any terms whatever" I ha...When I said "in any terms whatever" I had in mind somebody like Christopher Hitchens. From a recent NPR report--<br /><br /><i>Hitchens, a columnist for Vanity Fair and author of the book God Is Not Great, told a capacity crowd at the University of Toronto, "I think religion should be treated with ridicule, hatred and contempt, and I claim that right." His words were greeted Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-89719975864094682352009-10-27T10:28:49.621-05:002009-10-27T10:28:49.621-05:00amos - you don't know anything about this, so ...amos - you don't know anything about this, so you shouldn't opine about it.OBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-40038401549565385302009-10-27T10:27:08.704-05:002009-10-27T10:27:08.704-05:00Jean
"I don't believe in a "moral r...Jean<br /><br />"I don't believe in a "moral right" to criticize things "in any terms whatever." For example, Glen Beck should take care not to scare people away from getting swine flu vaccines, and shouldn't gratuitously cause offense by calling Obama a racist. Sure, he has the legal right to say what he wants, but there are ethical standards we can measure him Ophelia Bensonhttp://www.butterfliesandwheels.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-80459712281864511622009-10-27T10:15:48.490-05:002009-10-27T10:15:48.490-05:00I don't always read B & W, so I don't...I don't always read B & W, so I don't know how many times J has reminded people about U.K. libel laws, but he has done it before in threads which I have read. That may be why his tone is harsh. It's a bit like the tone I use when I'm forced to remind people for the 15th time that there is a problem with the wall of the shower in my apartment. I'm the one who is s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-3942004397031211162009-10-27T10:06:56.838-05:002009-10-27T10:06:56.838-05:00amos, Jerry S "made the error" of remind...amos, Jerry S "made the error" of reminding people about UK libel law with what could be considered excessive harshness, given that there's no reason to think they already knew about UK libel law and its implications for commenting on B&W. The putative "just indignation against his cowardly appeasement of Mooney and Co" comes from all of one person, the one who was Ophelia Bensonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-38340207133905470112009-10-27T09:52:58.765-05:002009-10-27T09:52:58.765-05:00Amos, I think the indignation is just, not because...Amos, I think the indignation is just, not because he's an appeaser of Mooney & Co., but because he made it sound like he's lurking in an alley somewhere, waiting to break someone's bones.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-27327711565182117082009-10-27T09:41:49.839-05:002009-10-27T09:41:49.839-05:00I think maybe that's it--the pretense of High ...I think maybe that's it--the pretense of High Reason (not to be confused with High Treason). A discussion about religion inevitably gets into rather complicated issues of epistemology, ethics, philosophy of mind, law, etc. And then there's the ideology at these blogs--what must be said, according to some invisible playbook. What is jarring is the supreme confidence and anger with which Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-24019504768745595482009-10-27T09:33:08.739-05:002009-10-27T09:33:08.739-05:00If you'll take a look at B & W, Jerry S. ...If you'll take a look at B & W, Jerry S. made the error of reminding people that under British libel laws, he is legally responsible for what people say and he is now the target of just indignation against his cowardly appeasement of Mooney and Co. I'm off to prepare food again.s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-40974596902029676692009-10-27T09:21:04.370-05:002009-10-27T09:21:04.370-05:00I dunno, I frequent political blogs and takedowns ...I dunno, I frequent political blogs and takedowns there can be severe. There is plenty of talk about "crazy" and "stupid" and "evil" to go around. And yet despite that there is <i>something</i> to the point you are making. I'm just not sure how to articulate it in a way that I find satisfactory. <br /><br />It might have something to do with the way the discourseFaustnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-33919438016044367222009-10-27T09:01:26.648-05:002009-10-27T09:01:26.648-05:00Nah. The atmosphere at atheist blogs has been note...Nah. The atmosphere at atheist blogs has been noted by many people. It's not just me nursing my wounds. I don't feel that wounded--actually, more just amused.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-91561456275009286492009-10-27T08:41:58.061-05:002009-10-27T08:41:58.061-05:00Actually, I know lots of males who do the cooking...Actually, I know lots of males who do the cooking and the food preparation and I think that I did <br />point that out. You have an excellent memory, in any case. Yes, some internet spaces are more ideological than others, and I generally don't feel comfortable with them. Are the new atheists nastier than other online groups?<br />Couldn't it be that we (both of us as well as s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-17717049921303327522009-10-27T08:10:47.137-05:002009-10-27T08:10:47.137-05:00Amos--Another thought about this. Some blogs are ...Amos--Another thought about this. Some blogs are "ideological." Almost all commenters agree on a set of things. If you step in and deviate you get "corrected." What varies is how narrowly the ideology is defined, and what happens to the renegade. This is where I think many atheist blogs are stand outs. Compared to other blogs I read, they are particularly narrow and the Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-37680326265174776532009-10-27T07:22:23.866-05:002009-10-27T07:22:23.866-05:00I think many commenters on atheist blogs are notic...I think many commenters on atheist blogs are noticeably like adolescent boys in the way they combine very high confidence and abrasiveness with low reflectiveness. Certainly they're way more adolescent than commenters at Feminist Philosophers. I actually don't agree that there's "hopeless generalization" over there. In fact, discussions are usually very focused. I rememberJean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-83625908590618760692009-10-27T07:08:58.051-05:002009-10-27T07:08:58.051-05:00But the original issue is whether the new atheists...But the original issue is whether the new atheists are any more adolescent than other internet interest groups or other internet causes. For example, there is a group called Feminist Philosophers, which I believe that you linked to, either from here or from the TPM blog. One day they were talking about "men": I remarked that they could not generalize about "men" in s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-9692656901488843812009-10-26T21:31:10.062-05:002009-10-26T21:31:10.062-05:00I don't believe in a "moral right" t...I don't believe in a "moral right" to criticize things "in any terms whatever." For example, Glen Beck should take care not to scare people away from getting swine flu vaccines, and shouldn't gratuitously cause offense by calling Obama a racist. Sure, he has the legal right to say what he wants, but there are ethical standards we can measure him by. Ditto, people who Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.com