tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post7021349924829470699..comments2023-10-14T09:40:06.690-05:00Comments on Jean Kazez: The Incivility DebateJean Kazezhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-26440659079521955072010-08-28T22:03:50.430-05:002010-08-28T22:03:50.430-05:00Fair enough--I agree you need a nuclear option, an...Fair enough--I agree you need a nuclear option, and that's the sort of thing you need it for.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-72521513926452383792010-08-28T20:14:31.518-05:002010-08-28T20:14:31.518-05:00"I would have thought it's safe to say th..."I would have thought it's safe to say that 'personal and vitriolic attacks' are out of bounds."<br /><br />I wouldn't say that vitriol is out of bounds so much as it is a "nuclear option." I can't fault someone much if at all for vitriol about the cover-up of child rape within the Catholic Church, for example.<br /><br />(On the other hand, if when J. J. Ramseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00763792476799485687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-487612165507832262010-08-28T15:36:39.426-05:002010-08-28T15:36:39.426-05:00She certainly didn't write a thorough, precise...She certainly didn't write a thorough, precise discourse about rights and respect. Not at all--it looks like what she was really interested in was the business about maximizing wellbeing as opposed to rationality. I thought that part of the essay was actually quite interesting.<br /><br />I agree about respect creep--let's not have that. I don't have to revere other people's godsJean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-23891474301026022302010-08-28T10:40:00.950-05:002010-08-28T10:40:00.950-05:00"I think it's pretty obvious O'Neill ..."I think it's pretty obvious O'Neill was talking about freedom and rights in this looser, practical sense, not about constitutional or legal rights."<br /><br />I don't think it's really all that useful to speak of rights in a "looser" sense, since that just invites confusion. I'm not even sure it even makes much sense to speak of rights outside of a legal J. J. Ramseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00763792476799485687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-10965007405365938502010-08-28T09:00:51.083-05:002010-08-28T09:00:51.083-05:00JJ, I think it's a mistake to sweep the classr...JJ, I think it's a mistake to sweep the classroom example aside. That's where you can clearly see that freedom comes in degrees, and does depend on respect. Then you can extrapolate to other cases, "modulo" whatever differences there are in the other cases.<br /><br />So--imagine a classroom where the Xs are attacked and mocked and openly viewed as stupid. The X's keep a Jean Kazeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-39739054185136091162010-08-28T08:44:56.707-05:002010-08-28T08:44:56.707-05:00Of course, people have every legal right in the ...Of course, people have every legal right in the world to be uncivil, rude and mocking towards others, and in my experience, they often make use of that right.<br /><br /><br />Given how uncivil and disrespectful most people are towards others, especially towards others who are different than they are, towards others who do not form part of their identity group, why add to that climate s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-43319329299616155342010-08-28T07:44:54.003-05:002010-08-28T07:44:54.003-05:00"I gave other examples too, not involving a c..."I gave other examples too, not involving a classroom. In the current climate of hostility toward Muslims in the US, the right to express Muslim beliefs, or practise the religion, becomes attenuated." <br /><br />A big part of that, though, is that the Tea Partiers have enough of a lynch mob mentality that Muslims have reason to fear for their safety, so it's not a great example of J. J. Ramseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00763792476799485687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-85958678338628605552010-08-27T14:48:28.351-05:002010-08-27T14:48:28.351-05:00By any normal standard, he's being uncivil. Al...By any normal standard, he's being uncivil. All the labelling is definitely uncivil in my neck of the woods. Even worse is the immediate assumption of superior knowledge on his part, and utter stupidity on O'Neill's. It's civil to try to understand what your opponent really meant, uncivil to latch onto the most unflattering reading you can. <br /><br />As to your second Jean Kazeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-64512603716306752692010-08-27T13:49:51.170-05:002010-08-27T13:49:51.170-05:00I don't think that a matter-of-fact harsh asse...I don't think that a matter-of-fact harsh assessment such as "lacks intellectual merit" is uncivil. Possibly incorrect (though I don't think it is incorrect in this instance), but not uncivil.<br /><br />I also think that you are mixing together things that really should be separated out. Religious freedom, in the sense of people being free to believe and worship as they wish, J. J. Ramseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00763792476799485687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-41635788857861633062010-08-26T13:31:27.224-05:002010-08-26T13:31:27.224-05:00People have a legal right to mock religion and a l...People have a legal right to mock religion and a legal right to be incivil towards religion. <br /><br />Whether it is ethically good in the cirumstance you cite to exercise that legal right is another question. <br /><br />Here's a quote from Nietzsche (The Gay Science, 209), which reminds me of some debates online:<br /><br />There's a way of asking us for our reasons that s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.com