tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post6927315634918308796..comments2023-10-14T09:40:06.690-05:00Comments on Jean Kazez: Animals and Human EthicsJean Kazezhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-38576853145797789432010-03-07T07:39:11.268-06:002010-03-07T07:39:11.268-06:00I agree that it's not technically licit to app...I agree that it's not technically licit to apply human ethics to animals, but it is difficult to refrain from doing it. We seem condemned to see all beings through the eyes of human ethics. If you did not on some level find wolf mating costumes to ethically unacceptable, you would not have raised the questions that you did in your post.s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-28880549739890868742010-03-06T19:09:21.500-06:002010-03-06T19:09:21.500-06:00Faust--I thought you'd agree. Wasn't sure...Faust--I thought you'd agree. Wasn't sure what was what, above.<br /><br />Wayne--Hmm. I can't get past thinking about what it would mean for you to have sex with your wife in the way Klingons have sex with their wives. But I'll try...<br /><br />Let's see--I'm not convinced the wolf arrangement generates greatest possible total happiness. There's no "Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-5584890446174599862010-03-06T18:24:44.017-06:002010-03-06T18:24:44.017-06:00My point is that we, human beings, are much clos...My point is that we, human beings, are much closer to wolves than we pretend to be. If alpha male, JFK, rich, good-looking and political omnipotent, had a quarter of the number of the sexual contacts that he is supposed to have had in some accounts that I've read, then he had several thousand times the possibility to spread his genes than the average male. Yes, JFK, s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-40249083456806210802010-03-06T18:16:00.694-06:002010-03-06T18:16:00.694-06:00Well lets not force egalitarianism on to everythin...Well lets not force egalitarianism on to everything here.... It may maximize utility for things NOT to be egalitarian. Equality doesn't always translate to equal treatment. It would maximize utility I think for one starving person to get an entire pizza, then for my entire class to each get a bite of that pizza equally. <br /><br />So the Alpha male in a wolf pack being satisfied, may Waynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08627147979307495870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-52736137919560636692010-03-06T17:45:54.494-06:002010-03-06T17:45:54.494-06:00Ahhh.
That makes more sense. I of course agree. E...Ahhh.<br /><br />That makes more sense. I of course agree. Except that I don't think it's merely "not clear" that our moral concepts don't extend. I think it's clear they don't. <br /><br />For some reason I thought you were saying the opposite of what you were actually saying.Faustnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-48296871714187804212010-03-06T16:37:23.390-06:002010-03-06T16:37:23.390-06:00I get the feeling people think I've made the a...I get the feeling people think I've made the argument that people are egalitarian and wolves are inegalitarian. But no--not at all. What I'm saying is that our most advanced ethical theories are egalitarian--e.g. utilitarianism and Kantian ethics. I'm saying if you apply those concepts to wolf packs, you get strange results. You have to say it's bad that bachelor wolves get left Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-47484906232822314642010-03-06T15:20:07.488-06:002010-03-06T15:20:07.488-06:00Even in human society there are unwritten rules (a...Even in human society there are unwritten rules (as well as written ones) on who gets to reproduce - attractiveness, wealth, health, etc. are factors that influence it. I do think every animal counts as an individual.crystalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05681674503952991492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-91417876875249079592010-03-06T14:59:55.963-06:002010-03-06T14:59:55.963-06:00Let's take a Muslim society, in which the alp...Let's take a Muslim society, in which the alpha males have several wives each. Some lower-status males are going to get left out.s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-72018127605028441292010-03-06T14:13:58.113-06:002010-03-06T14:13:58.113-06:00There are clearly major difference between the way...There are clearly major difference between the way reproduction works in different animal species. In a wolf pack, most males don't reproduce. Likewise in many other animal species (naked mole rats, ants, etc), reproduction is for the minority. That's simply not true in human societies.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-51464530814342716182010-03-06T13:56:41.654-06:002010-03-06T13:56:41.654-06:00Actually, in human societies, alpha males get mo...Actually, in human societies, alpha males get more opportunities to reproduce or at least a larger variety of sex partners, and no one gets very indignant about that: in fact, it's considered to be "natural".s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-58194556815211349182010-03-06T13:42:49.730-06:002010-03-06T13:42:49.730-06:00It seems natural to suppose we've wound up wit...It seems natural to suppose we've wound up with an understanding of "good" and "bad" that in some sense fits our lives, our societies, our history etc. It really does seem very puzzling to me how we should view those bachelor wolves. Is it bad that they're frustrated? If we were talking about a human society where only the alpha males got to reproduce, the answer Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-10514051146686874422010-03-06T12:03:08.321-06:002010-03-06T12:03:08.321-06:00"Can it really be that "good" and &..."Can it really be that "good" and "bad" out there in the wilderness beyond us is just as we've come to think of it, as a result of thousands of years of living in a human society, time spent coming to grips with what a good life is for us, given our nature? That simply sounds absurd."<br /><br />What's absurd about it?Faustnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-39413905867678780392010-03-06T11:35:45.218-06:002010-03-06T11:35:45.218-06:00Ethics has to do with human beings, with the ways...Ethics has to do with human beings, with the ways in which human beings treat themselves, each other, other non-humans and the universe in general. Wolves are not ethical agents, although human beings should treat them ethically. In the case of wolves who eat other animals, other animals should be protected. However, is it possible that there are means to protect animals which the s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.com