tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post6559282290114561417..comments2023-10-14T09:40:06.690-05:00Comments on Jean Kazez: Surviving Death (2)Jean Kazezhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-57457579548439493552010-08-17T02:03:33.593-05:002010-08-17T02:03:33.593-05:00So you don't find it disturbing that someone w...So you don't find it disturbing that someone who is unethical in a broad number of ways is likely to fare much better than someone who isn't? E.g. the lies one must tell to succeed in both politics of all kinds, both public and corporate; the extensive benefits of tribalism (broadly construed); the way in which people can become successful simply by being wanton propagandists; the fact Faustnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-46978499545219047912010-08-16T16:31:57.355-05:002010-08-16T16:31:57.355-05:00Here's another way to look at. While virtue...Here's another way to look at. While virtues are not only habitual dispositions, they do have a habitual element. <br /><br />As most of us get older, we become creatures of habit, set in our ways. <br /><br />Similarly, as most of us get older, we become more aware of our mortality. <br /><br />There is no necessary connection between being a creature of habits and of becomings. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-66101865349349935672010-08-16T11:03:00.649-05:002010-08-16T11:03:00.649-05:00OK, but I was trying to get a grip on SD and what ...OK, but I was trying to get a grip on SD and what MJ is trying to get me to think about here. This book (I would say) really is about death, and just about death. The puzzle here is how we can find some naturalistic "shadow" of the Christian idea that death is easier on the good than the bad. <br /><br />My question is--why should I really want to do that, if I'm not a Christian Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-28558723968906116532010-08-16T10:46:54.128-05:002010-08-16T10:46:54.128-05:00No I don't think that it's quite that simp...No I don't think that it's quite that simple. <br /><br />One way to get a sense of Johnston's larger project is to switch back to Saving God. In chapter 6 "Why God" he writes:<br /><br /><i>"Can't the ethical stand on its own? Why need it be backed by the threats and promises of a Divine Judge? (Or, as J.S. Mill less sympathetically put it, by "moral bribery Faustnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-77830298519378310552010-08-15T13:43:50.562-05:002010-08-15T13:43:50.562-05:00At least so far (I'm in chapter 4) the book re...At least so far (I'm in chapter 4) the book really strikes me as being just about mortality, and not about all the other possible threats to morality. I just don't see any other metaethical issues in the book so far. The idea is to replace the old supernatural idea that good people are rewarded in the afterlife with a new and natural idea as to how death is less worrisome for good people.Jean Kazeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-21766235674278618762010-08-15T12:49:28.436-05:002010-08-15T12:49:28.436-05:00I guess I"m recommending the following:
1. M...I guess I"m recommending the following:<br /><br />1. Mortality doesn't just mean "mortality" but can be hooked up to problems like surrounding moral relativism, contingency, convention and so forth. Mortality just <i>means</i> that this frame of existence is all we get. That justice is relative to the demands of <i>this</i> world, and is therefore relative. Mortality results Faustnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-32465620591187415642010-08-15T12:45:43.814-05:002010-08-15T12:45:43.814-05:00Correction--I misrepresented him above. The idea i...Correction--I misrepresented him above. The idea is not that mortality seems to take away the incentive to be morally good, but that it threatens our sense of the <i>importance</i> of being morally good. Subtle difference. Thoughts of mortality don't necessarily stop us being good, but trouble us with the worry about why it matters so much whether we're good. I think that's the idea.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-58494623516022249582010-08-15T12:12:34.374-05:002010-08-15T12:12:34.374-05:00I think the idea is that mortality does at least s...I think the idea is that mortality does at least seem to threaten morality. He has to convince us of this seeming, before getting us interested in his account of why it doesn't really. How can I assess the claim about seeming except by looking at cases--like my own? When people are in the middle of experiencing a strong sense of duty, do they actually find it ebbs when they ponder that Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-62230082797961135992010-08-15T11:41:18.939-05:002010-08-15T11:41:18.939-05:00I think you lay it out nicely. However, from Johns...I think you lay it out nicely. However, from Johnston's perspective you've not overcome "the problem" in general, you've just "overcome" it in your own case. But Johnston is is concerned with the <i>threat</i> of death to morality. As he acknowledges right off, modern moral philosophy does not have this threat in view. He discusses this on pages 8-12. According toFaustnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-35648862813233752562010-08-15T09:44:24.573-05:002010-08-15T09:44:24.573-05:00Faust,
I guess I was expecting a sequel to Saving...Faust,<br /><br />I guess I was expecting a sequel to Saving God, and so a real book -- which is really something quite different from a lecture series. I get the impression that too much of the content here is being shaped by who's in the audience--he has to feed "the tigers" as he puts it. Plus, he's oriented a lot to an imaginary reader who's insisting on supernatural Jean Kazeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-67783152646359984492010-08-15T09:12:08.351-05:002010-08-15T09:12:08.351-05:00Faust: I've run into a few of those whom you...Faust: I've run into a few of those whom you call "brutal pragmatists", and while no argument or reasons can convert them to concerned, thoughtful ethicists, one should keep a safe distance from them, because they can do a lot of harm.s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-37755912564241851512010-08-15T04:39:09.210-05:002010-08-15T04:39:09.210-05:00I think you've convinced me not to buy this bo...I think you've convinced me not to buy this book, Jean Kazez (I was thinking of buying and reading it).<br /><br />By the way, I remember some study at least a decade old that showed contemplation of oncoming mortality usually sharpened values -- whatever the values were, whether conservative or liberal or whatever. In other words, if people thought on their mortality, they became more activeGurdurhttp://heathen-hub.com/blog.php?u=1noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-8546789323391759482010-08-14T23:49:06.686-05:002010-08-14T23:49:06.686-05:00I like my own company. Having said that, doing th...I like my own company. Having said that, doing the next right is not easy in all cases. I do err, but if the best I can do is be honest with myself about my faults, then so be it. I can learn from the experience. My mortality does not have anything to do with my morality. I am not moral in order to earn rewards in an afterlife. There is a freedom and heightened sense of creativity that Space Ladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02999151060350221353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-65876201724677016762010-08-14T22:35:57.605-05:002010-08-14T22:35:57.605-05:00I almost wrote to you early on to skip the first c...I almost wrote to you early on to skip the first chapter, or at least what takes place after around page 35, but then flipping through it, I wasn't sure how much of it was skip-able. Definitely some of it is, maybe even big chunks, I really had almost the same reaction you did: vast swaths of chapter 1 are arguments that I'm not interested in. On the other hand, he sets up some stuff thatFaustnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-91342435729901425212010-08-14T16:58:32.528-05:002010-08-14T16:58:32.528-05:00Sorry, Jean. I can't help you.
My sense ...Sorry, Jean. I can't help you. <br /><br />My sense of mortality, which has increased after the death of my son and as I get older, perhaps has made my moral sense keener: being aware of coming death leads me to focus on what matters, that is, on what has value, on what is good.<br /><br /><br />I used to be more frivolous and more selfishly hedonistic.s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.com