tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post5520576681543676744..comments2023-10-14T09:40:06.690-05:00Comments on Jean Kazez: Eating Meat, Raping WomenJean Kazezhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comBlogger28125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-12923405052632220302012-11-04T23:35:57.353-06:002012-11-04T23:35:57.353-06:00inhumane, and humane animal products... I'm a ...inhumane, and humane animal products... I'm a sociopath, and what is this then?...<br /><br />No but in seriousness I don't care how the animal is slaughtered. It's life has been ended, and it will soon be in my stomach, or someone else. Perhaps your referring to quality of life for the animal, and cleanliness... In which case for me it isn't a matter of humane V inhumane... It&#Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-21833039102942668402012-11-02T13:21:17.933-05:002012-11-02T13:21:17.933-05:00@jean
Only philosophers and meat eaters seem to ta...@jean<br />Only philosophers and meat eaters seem to take unnecessary harm as the core wrongness of meat eating - vegetarians/vegans , even if they use the same term , mean the killing is the main problem, so humane ways of killing don't reduce the "core wrongness". <br />Deepak Shettyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04324456947895848248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-32687699701570830212012-11-01T18:35:20.237-05:002012-11-01T18:35:20.237-05:00Craig, I dropped the ball here for reasons that ha...Craig, I dropped the ball here for reasons that had nothing to do with your comments--I simply got extremely busy. I'll try to come back to this thread in the next day or two. Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-32016482450021011492012-11-01T17:11:12.251-05:002012-11-01T17:11:12.251-05:00Jean, sometimes when I act deferentially out of po...Jean, sometimes when I act deferentially out of politeness and a desire to connect, people take advantage of it. I had thought we passed at least a minimal threshold of familiarity which would prevent that problem. If you read my arguments while keeping in mind that I'm rejecting the utilitarian calculus -- as opposed to chalking them up to the less than flattering role you have ascribed to Craig Uriashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03390058922234703660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-22649757922342261892012-10-31T13:56:14.394-05:002012-10-31T13:56:14.394-05:00The argument is throughout the post, plus in the l...The argument is throughout the post, plus in the literature I refer to. It's all the stuff about unnecessary harm and necessary harm, the H:B balance or imbalance, the mother who ought to use the goat to feed her child, etc. Of course, not everyone sees animal ethics that way, but many do--see the paragraph about my book, DeGrazia, and Singer.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-34557321520472660822012-10-31T13:54:00.682-05:002012-10-31T13:54:00.682-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-78405060491654420932012-10-30T12:19:28.477-05:002012-10-30T12:19:28.477-05:00You do reduce the core wrongness of eating meat by...<i>You do reduce the core wrongness of eating meat by treating the animal more compassionately. </i><br />Isn't this an assumption? For many people the core wrongness is the taking of life. And you do not reduce the core wrongness of that by killing more humanely .(otherwise we would have different levels in our legal system for cold blooded human murder depending on how humanely we murdered Deepak Shettyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04324456947895848248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-24681720990501102202012-10-30T00:18:42.792-05:002012-10-30T00:18:42.792-05:00Jean, I suppose you have the same kind of feeling ...Jean, I suppose you have the same kind of feeling I get when I listen to someone use the terms "energy", "momentum", and "force" almost interchangeably. It makes me wince. Thanks for your patience with my ignorance.<br /><br />I had not realized that the term "unnecessary" necessarily refers to to H:B ratios. I was merely drawing a distinction between (to Craig Uriashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03390058922234703660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-28542915630277379862012-10-29T20:31:38.356-05:002012-10-29T20:31:38.356-05:00Craig, I'm not following. You write--
"I...Craig, I'm not following. You write--<br /><br />"I said that inherent wrongness is orthogonal to B:H ratio discussions, so I don't understand why you think I'm combining them."<br /><br />But it seemed to me you were combining them in earlier comments and it looks like you continue to do so in your last comment. You say--<br /><br />"I am taking issue with not labelingJean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-20252204881184964362012-10-29T18:20:24.136-05:002012-10-29T18:20:24.136-05:00Jean, I said that inherent wrongness is orthogonal...Jean, I said that inherent wrongness is orthogonal to B:H ratio discussions, so I don't understand why you think I'm combining them. Orthogonal is the opposite of combining.<br /><br />It seems I haven't communicated my point at all, sorry. I am taking issue with not labeling unnecessary carnivorism as inherently wrong. I have tried to show that this is a matter of chauvinism -- if Craig Uriashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03390058922234703660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-45943007513925403982012-10-29T11:46:41.771-05:002012-10-29T11:46:41.771-05:00Craig, I'm using "inherently wrong" ...Craig, I'm using "inherently wrong" here as the opposite of "wrong because of H:B imbalance". So--"inherently wrong" means wrong just in its very nature, not wrong because the benefits are trivial, compared to the harm. So I don't see how you can combine these two concepts as you seem to be trying to do.<br /><br />Wayne, Funny--when explaining Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-5041533205912191292012-10-29T11:35:50.083-05:002012-10-29T11:35:50.083-05:00Rape is one of those moral issues that to me is a ...Rape is one of those moral issues that to me is a universal moral wrong. It doesn't matter what the consequences are, it doesn't matter who is raping, and who is being raped, be the woman jogging in the park or Hitler. It really brings out my Kantian side.<br /><br />I worry that there might be a day I come up with some clever Trolly like scenario that will show me that rape might Waynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08627147979307495870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-19082371380344847432012-10-27T13:52:29.138-05:002012-10-27T13:52:29.138-05:00Jean, I was thinking entirely in terms of unnecess...Jean, I was thinking entirely in terms of unnecessary harm that persists because it is entrenched in society. Even eating a goat -- instead of just drinking its milk -- may be necessary in circumstances where not doing so would lead to death by starvation.<br /><br />Of course all rape is unnecessary. In a dystopian society where rape is pervasive, it would still be inherently wrong. And in the Craig Uriashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03390058922234703660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-38701373127415089292012-10-27T11:55:16.329-05:002012-10-27T11:55:16.329-05:00Spencer, True, even if you thought carvnivorism a...Spencer, True, even if you thought carvnivorism and rape were both inherently wrong (so, no balance analysis for either), if you imagine a world where rape plays a role like animal consumption does, it starts to make sense to support humane rape. But we don't really have to go to all that trouble, since we can just shift our attention to other very entrenched practices--slavery, the death Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-48484916456552283442012-10-27T11:39:00.920-05:002012-10-27T11:39:00.920-05:00Isn't it clear that some forms of rape are wor...Isn't it clear that some forms of rape are worse than others? To take two extreme cases for effect, compare a psychopath that tortures his victim with knives, beating, etc., and a creepy stalker that sneaks into the victim's apartment, administers some anaesthetic while she is sleeping, does his thing, and quietly leaves, all without the victim ever knowing what happened. From these two Craig Uriashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03390058922234703660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-66991401316767864372012-10-27T11:33:38.918-05:002012-10-27T11:33:38.918-05:00Jean,
I think the slavery and death penalty paral...Jean,<br /><br />I think the slavery and death penalty parallels clearly demonstrate the non-absurdity of humane reforms for animals.<br /><br />Which highlights another problem with GF's rape analogy: its sensationalist character discourages people from *really* imagining the relevant situation in which one could conceivably favor humane reforms for rape. Instead, when people are repulsed bySpencerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01066089293772059329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-37140236882448400162012-10-27T11:30:08.830-05:002012-10-27T11:30:08.830-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Spencerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01066089293772059329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-55757456139552884712012-10-27T11:14:25.851-05:002012-10-27T11:14:25.851-05:00It seems your case hinges on the distinction betwe...It seems your case hinges on the distinction between "inherently wrong" and "worse H:B ratio". But what prevents someone from saying that carnivorism is inherently wrong? One could then argue along the same lines as you did.<br /><br />Imagine yourself living in a cannibalistic society. You had the misfortune of being born into the "provider class", which is a Craig Uriashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03390058922234703660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-65895449178006028622012-10-27T11:11:23.915-05:002012-10-27T11:11:23.915-05:00Anonymous, Yes, I agree, I don't think GF can ...Anonymous, Yes, I agree, I don't think GF can be serious about that "unnecessary harm" formulation. It's not consistent with his main way of discussing the wrongness of using animals as food.<br /><br />Spencer, I tried to talk in terms of "unnecessary harm" in the post, not "unnecessary suffering" so as not to tie this kind of talk to any one account of &Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-66845261810281026402012-10-27T09:20:58.047-05:002012-10-27T09:20:58.047-05:00Wouldn't GF say that the “core wrongness” of a...Wouldn't GF say that the “core wrongness” of animal consumption is the use of animals for relatively trivial purposes, not just the unnecessary suffering? He might not see any great reduction in the “core wrongness” via more compassionate treatment (though he does acknowledge the latter is better).<br /><br />My problem with the “humane rape” analogy is that the contexts are vastly different:Spencerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01066089293772059329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-56204516603214356142012-10-27T09:18:59.053-05:002012-10-27T09:18:59.053-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Spencerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01066089293772059329noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-85099307088908231602012-10-27T08:14:21.943-05:002012-10-27T08:14:21.943-05:00I guess he’s using two arguments for different con...I guess he’s using two arguments for different contexts: When he appeals to the proposition "unnecessary suffering is bad", he is trying to propose an argument for the abolition of "99% of animal use" (and for veganism) without requiring an appeal to animal rights. <br /><br />If you look, however, into his argument for animal rights, it works without the appeal to unnecessaryAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-89022935664719647622012-10-27T07:39:17.165-05:002012-10-27T07:39:17.165-05:00I had a student who did an honors project a few ye...I had a student who did an honors project a few years back to see how students respond to shockers like the "Holocaust on your plate" campaign. She found they appeal to people already interested in animal rights and repel people who aren't already interested. Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-83228909544967224412012-10-26T23:18:20.361-05:002012-10-26T23:18:20.361-05:00Jean: I get your point. Of course, in addition to ...Jean: I get your point. Of course, in addition to the finer details of analysis, there's a question about this sort of analogical rhetoric (and with it, "the Holocaust on your plate," and Coetzee's character Elizabeth Costello, and so forth)--that is, whether the shock value of the rhetoric is worth the fact that it's immediately going to turn some people off (provoking Matthew Pianaltohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16380038537888895216noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-79046355853379486772012-10-26T22:24:40.792-05:002012-10-26T22:24:40.792-05:00Yes, I'm not saying the "unnecessary harm...Yes, I'm not saying the "unnecessary harm" analysis is one every animal ethicist would buy into, but it's interesting how many people do, and even Francione does talk that way sometimes. If that's what someone really thinks, then the problem with eating animals is that there's a harm:benefit imbalance, and you can create at least a better balance by causing even just a Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.com