tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post5047676513550920822..comments2023-10-14T09:40:06.690-05:00Comments on Jean Kazez: Elevator GuyJean Kazezhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-32758949294894681242011-07-06T07:43:33.855-05:002011-07-06T07:43:33.855-05:00I don't often pay attention to the skeptical c...I don't often pay attention to the skeptical community as a whole, and now I'm starting to think I'm going to keep it that way. Here's Rebecca Watson slamming Richard Dawkins--<br /><br /> "Richard Dawkins believes I should be a good girl and just shut up about being sexually objectified because it doesn’t bother him. Thanks, wealthy old heterosexual white man!"<br />Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-4551456259538488532011-07-05T23:18:22.755-05:002011-07-05T23:18:22.755-05:00Yes, I know what "presumptuous" means, a...Yes, I know what "presumptuous" means, and that's how I meant it. Seems obvious to me, but I'm not going to belabor the point.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-74886818474758572602011-07-05T20:59:59.847-05:002011-07-05T20:59:59.847-05:00One can presume a great deal (as I did) without be...One can presume a great deal (as I did) without being "presumptuous". <br /><br />The word "presumptuous" has the sense of "taking liberties" or being "invasive", while to presume is "to take for granted".<br />(Dr. Livingston, I presume.)<br /><br />I took a lot of things for granted, but I don't think that I was invasive. <br /><br />s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-27160562732753122442011-07-05T20:54:38.615-05:002011-07-05T20:54:38.615-05:00Jeremy:
Since I already seem to putting my feet i...Jeremy:<br /><br />Since I already seem to putting my feet in my mouth in this conversation, I might as well continue.<br /><br />No, I have no hard evidence that women are less stereotyped than men, but in my experience, the average woman is less stereotyped than the average male, probably (I think) because the conventional stereotypes are male-generated or stem from a discourse which maless. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-14078825902963242252011-07-05T20:53:18.963-05:002011-07-05T20:53:18.963-05:00Grain's question was pretty obviously rhetoric...Grain's question was pretty obviously rhetorical and semi-humorous, and also completely general. You responded as if she/he was looking for concrete advice about how to succeed with women. I do think that's presuming a great deal. Obviously a person can ask general questions about about communication without actually soliciting personal advice from total strangers!Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-36921351375244977272011-07-05T20:37:02.313-05:002011-07-05T20:37:02.313-05:00Jean:
Grains asked how people would have sex if s...Jean:<br /><br />Grains asked how people would have sex if someone did not ask explicitly if the other wanted to have sex. <br /><br />I assumed incorrectly that she was a he and gave some advice. <br /><br />My advice may be good or bad or even stupid, but I fail to see why it is presumptuous, unless it is always presumptous, in your opinion, to give advice to people whom one does not know.s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-1361835638878813942011-07-05T20:15:47.219-05:002011-07-05T20:15:47.219-05:00Amos - I'm not sure whether it's true that...Amos - I'm not sure whether it's true that women are "less-stereotyped" in their reactions - I'd want to see hard evidence - but I certainly think it's the case that there is an awful lot of willingness in this debate to talk in a rather essentialist way about how women experience sexual inequality, the threat of sexual violence, etc.<br /><br />Not that how people "Jeremy Stangroomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10140136966531444710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-6006689139836824422011-07-05T20:11:06.310-05:002011-07-05T20:11:06.310-05:00Amos, I knew Grains was female (I had followed her...Amos, I knew Grains was female (I had followed her link), but that wasn't really my point when I asked whether you were giving advice. Even if Grains had been male, I would have found the way you were giving advice (in the imperative mood, even) presumptuous on many levels.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-30537324110121864972011-07-05T18:35:35.127-05:002011-07-05T18:35:35.127-05:00Wow!!
Sorry, Grains.
I've been following ...Wow!!<br /><br />Sorry, Grains. <br /><br />I've been following this theme here and elsewhere and what amazes me is the fact that highly intelligent males don't pay attention to women.<br /><br />By "pay attention", I mean "observe them closely".<br /><br />Part of being with others is observing their reactions, their eyes, their body language, their tone of s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-46758029663839495502011-07-05T15:19:48.242-05:002011-07-05T15:19:48.242-05:00Amos, Grains is a woman (I know her in the real wo...Amos, Grains is a woman (I know her in the real world, and she said it was okay for me to disclose this!).<br /><br />There was a very cool piece of research done a long time ago (and I'm going to get the details wrong, because I haven't read it for many years).<br /><br />Basically, researchers found a very attractive man and a very attractive woman (as ranked by a random group of peopleJeremy Stangroomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10140136966531444710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-21382063061855704072011-07-05T11:32:51.667-05:002011-07-05T11:32:51.667-05:00Grains--Yes, "inappropriate" seems like ...Grains--Yes, "inappropriate" seems like a sure thing, but the rest is up in the air. Maybe sexist, but misogynist is a big leap. <br /><br />Amos--I don't think Dawkins should be read too literally. He was making rhetorical points to get across his view that nothing untoward happened in the elevator. Um, are you actually giving Grains advice on how to pick up women? I hope not.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-1821360895225505232011-07-04T16:20:47.835-05:002011-07-04T16:20:47.835-05:00Grains:
Women will generally signal their interes...Grains:<br /><br />Women will generally signal their interest if they are attracted to a man. <br /><br />If you're not good at reading those signals, let the woman make the first move.<br /><br />In fact, a man playing mysterious and hard to get (waiting for the woman to make the first move) attracts lots of women.s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-2426414435568681932011-07-04T13:35:31.657-05:002011-07-04T13:35:31.657-05:00Harassment of women is so common that Dawkin's...Harassment of women is so common that Dawkin's comments making light of the elevator incident is insensitive even if the incident is hardly of the scale of what women suffer in Saudi Arabia.<br /><br />Dawkin's attitude is a bit like mocking someone for complaining <br />about being homeless because she isn't suffering like those in Auschwitz or the Gulag.s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-61026335181846980362011-07-04T12:20:29.903-05:002011-07-04T12:20:29.903-05:00I question whether Elevator Guy's actions were...I question whether Elevator Guy's actions were sexist, much less misogynist. His actions were inappropriate, especially considering Rebecca Watson had been discussing sexism 'in the sceptical community', and his asking her back to his room for coffee suggests he probably wasn't taking her views seriously. If he wasn't taking her views seriously because she's a woman, Grains of Truthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15144000947246626828noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-50324238437635886442011-07-04T11:59:58.005-05:002011-07-04T11:59:58.005-05:00A comment for my Irish ghost: I know who you are. ...A comment for my Irish ghost: I know who you are. You might want to stop leaving deranged comments at this blog. Thanks, and have a great day.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-62299555863717805532011-07-04T11:51:52.829-05:002011-07-04T11:51:52.829-05:00Ha! Same explanation why annoying telemarketers ke...Ha! Same explanation why annoying telemarketers keep going at it.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-8233401247161051872011-07-04T11:07:03.330-05:002011-07-04T11:07:03.330-05:00I was told the following story by the woman involv...I was told the following story by the woman involved the day after it happened at the World Congress of Philosophy in Boston (in 1998).<br /><br />A woman philosopher was standing waiting for an elevator and got chatting to a guy philosopher who she didn't know. The elevator took a couple of minutes to arrive, and then they got on together.<br /><br />On the way up, he asked her whether she Jeremy Stangroomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10140136966531444710noreply@blogger.com