tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post490501138641390795..comments2023-10-14T09:40:06.690-05:00Comments on Jean Kazez: The Emperor's Gnu ClothesJean Kazezhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-27799210699352704652011-02-28T09:01:53.672-06:002011-02-28T09:01:53.672-06:00Excuse me if I have trouble working up much sympat...Excuse me if I have trouble working up much sympathy for a guy getting called a "fatty" when he is also an all-powerful emperor with unimaginable wealth and power. In fact I actually think this is <a href="http://nojesusnopeas.blogspot.com/2011/02/wait-why-shouldnt-children-call-emperor.html" rel="nofollow">quite a good analogy</a> to the deference shown to religion in the public James Sweethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17212877636980569324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-1228184294487514112011-02-22T14:32:09.029-06:002011-02-22T14:32:09.029-06:00I apologise if I got a bit carried away. I'll ...I apologise if I got a bit carried away. I'll try to refrain from slinging mud in the future. Let me make my point another way though.<br /><br />Popperian pictures of science are particularly popular (especially amongst those paragons of rationality that are the new/gnu atheists, ironically), they are also wrong beyond any reasonable doubt. Popper’s cultural influence, however, far exceeds Adamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-9564297060217869972011-02-22T09:32:48.535-06:002011-02-22T09:32:48.535-06:00Adam, Please do read the comment policy. You'...Adam, Please do read the comment policy. You're violating it with all that mud-slinging.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-71944446326396463902011-02-22T08:02:13.087-06:002011-02-22T08:02:13.087-06:00The problem with gnu and new atheists alike is tha...The problem with gnu and new atheists alike is that they spend all of their time banging on about nothing at all. Can someone please point me to a rigorous argument by Ophelia Benson, or even Dawkins or Harris before I just accept that all theists are worthy of is mockery. <br /><br />I'm not even asking for an argument to back up the claim that theism is so obviously false that nobody is in Adamnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-48636026822086772522011-02-19T07:28:46.831-06:002011-02-19T07:28:46.831-06:00Phibold, Oh come on, I love that story--I get to u...Phibold, Oh come on, I love that story--I get to use it too. <br /><br />Deepak, I'm not a huge expert, but examples might be (hmm)...Paul Kurtz, Jennifer Michel Hecht, Phil Plait.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-56756343974581895952011-02-19T07:04:08.696-06:002011-02-19T07:04:08.696-06:00It's not that I think you believe there isn...It's not that I think you believe there isn't any likable "new" candor, it's that I think this parable exaggerates the prevalence and relevance of the "excess" out there.Eric Duttonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-80183914571817999842011-02-19T05:29:50.085-06:002011-02-19T05:29:50.085-06:00jean, the Emperor's New Clothes analogy is
so...jean, the Emperor's New Clothes analogy is <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/12/the_courtiers_reply.php" rel="nofollow"><br />so 2006</a>.Philboid Studgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12303760443013349885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-40291267604266025032011-02-19T00:35:38.759-06:002011-02-19T00:35:38.759-06:00say what they ought to say
But they don't. The...<i>say what they ought to say</i><br />But they don't. They think they are saying this. <br /><i>But some do have this set of attitudes</i><br />I gknow one(gnot you). Do you have any other gnames? gnote that everyone from Dawkins to Denett have been called gnasties - so its hard to gknow which gnastiness is being complained about.Deepak Shettyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04324456947895848248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-70824077153151249712011-02-18T23:03:22.893-06:002011-02-18T23:03:22.893-06:00Eric--my story doesn't spell out what is "...Eric--my story doesn't spell out what is "gnu" excess and what is just a continuation of likable "new" candor. There's definitely plenty of the latter out there--don't take me to be saying there isn't!<br /><br />Deepak--Watered down and sanitized...yeah, there's something to that. I've made so-called accommmodationists (the "adults" in storyJean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-20065577256430646352011-02-18T21:46:10.699-06:002011-02-18T21:46:10.699-06:00Some of the adults said: "Children. You'r...<i>Some of the adults said: "Children. You're right he's naked. The brave girl was perfectly right to say so. But you've gotten carried away. It's time to think this through.</i><br /><br />Perhaps if this was all that was being said , you might have a point. But surely even you recognize this is a watered down , sanitized version of events. <br />And Im curious How many Deepak Shettyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04324456947895848248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-28524633565940680402011-02-18T18:04:10.911-06:002011-02-18T18:04:10.911-06:00I'm always nervous about disagreeing on blog c...I'm always nervous about disagreeing on blog comments because it's easy to read dissent as bilious dissent.<br /><br />I disagree that this parable gets at some of the dynamics behind the behavior of the new atheists. It makes an assumption about our motivations and simply illustrates that assumption with a clever parable. That said, it works rather beautifully if you accept that Eric Duttonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02218237729809038293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-72661315020385744632011-02-18T14:08:24.442-06:002011-02-18T14:08:24.442-06:00But the crowd in your story was right. They were ...But the crowd in your story was <i>right</i>. They were saying something that was <i>true</i>, and others demanded they stop saying something that is <i>true</i>. Doesn't that have <i>any</i> bearing on whether or not they should be told to shut up?anthrosciguynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-13299702255528671332011-02-17T10:14:39.478-06:002011-02-17T10:14:39.478-06:00I agree that the girl's work is not done, but ...I agree that the girl's work is not done, but I think some of her successors are doing the work in the wrong way, and the parable gets at some of the dynamics behind that.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-7021029622003289342011-02-17T09:29:33.008-06:002011-02-17T09:29:33.008-06:00The emperor may enjoy being naked, but most people...The emperor may enjoy being naked, but most people still seem to think he's not and happily accede to his rule. So there's still a problem here. The first girl's work isn't done, however unpleasant it may be.Jon Dreyerhttp://www.jondreyer.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-76580696964901343942011-02-14T01:07:36.010-06:002011-02-14T01:07:36.010-06:00I'm a bit late here, but I only just found thi...I'm a bit late here, but I only just found this post through Butterflies and Wheels.<br />I think that this parable doesn't quite work in its retelling for this reason:<br />We (the mob) are not shouting that the emperor is naked simply to embarrass him. We aren't doing it because we see how much fun the little girl is having or because we wish we could be just as observant and wittyEric Duttonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02218237729809038293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-11047539748519666152011-02-01T10:35:07.599-06:002011-02-01T10:35:07.599-06:00Well, Richard has never struck me as one short on ...Well, Richard has never struck me as one short on imperiousness, in his writing, or (even less so) in person. And even if Harris' writings were full of contempt for the faithful, that would be the least of their intellectual problems. But you liking them, or even you disliking the writings of Coyne and Benson in particular (for all their possible foibles), is at least somewhat independent of JPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-62319770754193577532011-02-01T10:19:26.949-06:002011-02-01T10:19:26.949-06:00One of the things you're missing is that the p...One of the things you're missing is that the post makes it clear that I'm a fan of Dawkins and Harris. I'm saying there's a difference between their books and what you often see at some of today's atheist blogs. Their books are candid, but not contemptuous. Think about it--I actually could be right!Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-7525653300957831272011-02-01T10:10:00.895-06:002011-02-01T10:10:00.895-06:00No, I don't mean you're a theist - you'...No, I don't mean you're a theist - you've attested to the contrary many times. But your revealed preference is also for the social status quo regarding religion. So I don't believe I am misunderstanding your original point; you thought your parable was a good one for your purposes because the children who have followed the girl in denouncing the Emperor in his nakedness are, JPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-83744416143488504332011-02-01T09:10:33.577-06:002011-02-01T09:10:33.577-06:00JP, You think the story, on my retelling, is only...JP, You think the story, on my retelling, is only unintentionally about social power? Of course not! It's entirely about social power. It's social power that limits the brave girl. We rightly admire her because she stands up to it. <br /><br />It's also social power that turns the other kids into a mob--because they become a little society of their own, reinforcing each others Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-40427308015893581452011-02-01T08:59:02.668-06:002011-02-01T08:59:02.668-06:00Parable, indeed - one originally about the exercis...Parable, indeed - one originally about the exercise of social power (at least in part), and still about the exercise of social power in your retelling (even more so, in fact, however unintentionally). The parable would never get off the ground if the Emperor wasn't an emperor, since no-one would have had a reason to ignore his nudity. The upright and ever-so-considerate adults would have beenJPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-89495027770842998392011-02-01T08:08:36.459-06:002011-02-01T08:08:36.459-06:00Think parable. It's not actually about kids, ...Think parable. It's not actually about kids, it's not actually about emperors. The "gnu" version isn't about kids and emperors either. It's about how initial candor can gradually evolve into something else.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-46778200460996412772011-02-01T07:48:13.770-06:002011-02-01T07:48:13.770-06:00The parable is most appropriate - just not in the ...The parable is most appropriate - just not in the way Jean thinks. The strikingly salient feature of the story as she tells it - a feature she seems oblivious to - is that that Emperor is still an <i>emperor</i>, and the mocking children are still subjects of his rule. The tone-monitors are clearly monarchists who see nothing wrong with, and certainly nothing profoundly offensive to human dignityJPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-67829535702023203062011-01-27T22:45:56.406-06:002011-01-27T22:45:56.406-06:00Yikes, I forgot about that aspect of the story. N...Yikes, I forgot about that aspect of the story. Now it all comes back.... My renditions assume the girl is brave to speak out, whereas in the original, she just hasn't heard that if you're smart, you'll see the clothes. However you tell it, in the story the adults do see that the emperor is naked--it's obvious. So does that make the story unsuitable for talking about atheists Jean Kazeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-84145870056256265152011-01-27T22:15:06.910-06:002011-01-27T22:15:06.910-06:00If I remember the story of the emperor's new c...If I remember the story of the emperor's new clothes correctly, no one -- not the emperor and not his subjects -- can see the new clothes, but no one wants to admit it because they have been told it will prove they are too stupid to see them. When the child speaks out, people realize that their perception is really the truth.<br /><br />But most people who claim the God exists really believe Aeolushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15772583359516799143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-37672226997642298412011-01-27T15:05:32.029-06:002011-01-27T15:05:32.029-06:00I see insufficient reflection in new/gnu atheist c...<i>I see insufficient reflection in new/gnu atheist circles.</i><br /><br />Well, with all due modesty and all due recognition of self-serving bias, I think I engage in a fair amount of reflection. I even sometimes acknowledge error. I sometimes acknowledge saying too much or speaking too hastily.<br /><br />"new/gnu atheist circles" is general, of course, but since this post starts Ophelia Bensonhttp://www.butterfliesandwheels.orgnoreply@blogger.com