tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post4342306629956827775..comments2023-10-14T09:40:06.690-05:00Comments on Jean Kazez: Can Atheists be Pluralists?Jean Kazezhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comBlogger40125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-44185733525528976942011-01-25T09:59:09.569-06:002011-01-25T09:59:09.569-06:00I don't think "promoting religion" n...I don't think "promoting religion" necessarily means telling non-religious people to be religious. Promoting Christianity does not mean telling Jews and atheists to convert. It just means supporting and furthering Christianity. Obama was supporting and furthering religion.Jason Streitfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06950357341620206095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-81641528973893446632011-01-25T09:42:51.983-06:002011-01-25T09:42:51.983-06:00I don't think it's remotely true that he w...I don't think it's remotely true that he was telling non-believers that they should find God or go to church. That's what "promoting" would mean, and I don't see that in the speech, even reading between the lines. We have a long standing tradition of religious tolerance in this country, so we understand that when Jews get up and discuss rabinical wisdom, they're Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-85661816588209480692011-01-25T09:30:50.200-06:002011-01-25T09:30:50.200-06:00It seems obvious to me that Obama was promoting re...It seems obvious to me that Obama was promoting religion. I don't know what he could have done that would be more obviously a case of promoting religion, other than explicitly saying, "you all should go to church." Suggesting that prayer was appropriate, appealing to the Bible, and explicitly closing with a prayer: those are all explicitly pro-religion, and they show a very heavyJason Streitfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06950357341620206095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-36128843581961185942011-01-25T08:35:52.171-06:002011-01-25T08:35:52.171-06:00I don't think Obama was promoting religion--I ...I don't think Obama was promoting religion--I think that's a tendentious way of describing what he was doing. He was expressing his own beliefs in a way that he thought would be helpful to mourners. As I said way up, it would be a different matter if a school principle gave a speech like this--that really would be "establishment" of a state religion. But nobody had to go to Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-78834844097235239632011-01-25T08:08:02.716-06:002011-01-25T08:08:02.716-06:00It's not just talking about religion. Obama w...It's not just talking about religion. Obama was promoting it.<br /><br />The relevant portion of the first amendment bans congress from enacting laws which respect an establishment of religion. Technically, it doesn't say the President cannot promote religion. However, a stronger reading of the first amendment is possible and, indeed, I think the courts generally take a stronger stand Jason Streitfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06950357341620206095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-84061701390962336102011-01-25T07:28:20.784-06:002011-01-25T07:28:20.784-06:00I was responding to your argument, which was that ...I was responding to your argument, which was that atheist political candidates are weakened when religion-talk starts to be seen as a qualification for office. Taking that point on its own, my meat/sports argument seems perfectly relevant. <br /><br />Now you're adding "separation of church and state" as some sort of back up, but I don't see how it backs up your point. The Jean Kazeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-28380825574191487782011-01-25T00:49:58.394-06:002011-01-25T00:49:58.394-06:00If we had a constitutional separation of sports an...If we had a constitutional separation of sports and state, or carnivorism and state, then I would agree that the President should not, when acting as President, promote sports or meat-eating.Jason Streitfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06950357341620206095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-17194788077454572552011-01-24T23:03:28.551-06:002011-01-24T23:03:28.551-06:00I think Obama was speaking in his capacity as pres...I think Obama was speaking in his capacity as president...<br /><br />Yes, when he engages in religious talk at an event like this, that makes it harder for non-religious candidates to compete. But I don't think that makes it wrong for him to do it. Obama is also at an advantage in other ways. He's into sports, like most Americans. He eats meat, like most Americans. If he laces his Jean Kazeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-20636567177310797112011-01-24T14:03:22.374-06:002011-01-24T14:03:22.374-06:00Jean, it sounds like you might be willing to agree...Jean, it sounds like you might be willing to agree that Obama's job does not entail consoling the populace, because if it did, then whoever could do that better would presumably be better qualified to be President (all else being equal.) I think that, if Obama is going to step outside of his official duties like this, he should still retain the language and demeanor of President, and that Jason Streitfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06950357341620206095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-78084476681252124262011-01-24T09:01:03.256-06:002011-01-24T09:01:03.256-06:00Actually, you called me "cynical" for a...Actually, you called me "cynical" for attributing what might be considered to be "cynical" motives to Obama, calculating how his speech might affect his reelection possibilities.s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-43660610059501576882011-01-24T08:48:50.752-06:002011-01-24T08:48:50.752-06:00Amos, I wasn't calling Obama cynical, I was ca...Amos, I wasn't calling Obama cynical, I was calling you cynical for supposing he added religious talk to his speech for political reasons. Why say that, unless you have specific evidence about the speech, how he delivered it, how he wrote it, what he did before and after, etc?<br /><br />Jason, I didn't say Obama "should" have used religious language. I was merely rejecting the Jean Kazeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-21037059269392318882011-01-24T07:54:19.616-06:002011-01-24T07:54:19.616-06:00Jean:
There is a huge space between Nixon's C...Jean:<br /><br />There is a huge space between Nixon's Checkers Speech (a masterpiece of pure cynicism, so cynical that it's hilarously funny, recommended watching in YouTube) and Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" speech, the Ethic of Conviction in its finest moment. <br /><br />Unfortunately, we don't have the language to describe that space and we tend to s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-32834427553408409812011-01-24T01:12:14.542-06:002011-01-24T01:12:14.542-06:00Sorry to keep the track off the main line of your ...Sorry to keep the track off the main line of your post, but I have to be clear about one more point.<br /><br />Jean, your argument seems to be that the majority of US citizens expect the President to console them in times of national distress, that doing so is part of the President's responsibilities, and that secular language cannot do the job equally well. Therefore, the US President Jason Streitfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06950357341620206095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-31044553782875414632011-01-23T17:59:14.428-06:002011-01-23T17:59:14.428-06:00"Our differing impressions of Obama probably ..."Our differing impressions of Obama probably prove that Obama was right when he said that he is a mirror in which people see themselves reflected."<br /><br />Nah. I think my impression is based on the facts about the speech, his demeanor, how he wrote it, what he did before and after, etc. etc. etc. There's just no evidence at all that the religious elements were just there to Jean Kazeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-71073674085810799742011-01-23T17:09:58.022-06:002011-01-23T17:09:58.022-06:00Jean:
Our differing impressions of Obama probably...Jean:<br /><br />Our differing impressions of Obama probably prove that Obama was right when he said that he is a mirror in which people see themselves reflected. <br /><br />Quite an astute man, Mr. Obama!s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-40876364121958368602011-01-23T16:58:07.006-06:002011-01-23T16:58:07.006-06:00From reading his book, Dreams from My Father, ...From reading his book, Dreams from My Father, I get the impression that Obama is not only very intelligent, but also quite radical.<br /><br />He's not a traditionalist nor is he a conventional person. <br /><br />Thus, if he were frank, he would say all kinds of thinks which would not go down well with <br />Mr. and Mrs. Normal. Remember his comment during the campaign about s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-22497559311758499192011-01-23T16:47:41.179-06:002011-01-23T16:47:41.179-06:00amos, when it comes to politics, I'm guilty as...amos, when it comes to politics, I'm guilty as charged, and Obama is no exception. And I think he should be frank, though not without tact.Jason Streitfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06950357341620206095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-70772731904461533822011-01-23T16:24:49.723-06:002011-01-23T16:24:49.723-06:00Jason:
That really depends on how you're usin...Jason:<br /><br />That really depends on how you're using the word "cynical". I sometimes get confused about "cynical" because I speak Spanish and the meaning of "cynical" in Spanish is fairly close to that of the word in English, but with more negative connotations. <br /><br />My dictionary defines "cynic" as<br />"one who expects, believess. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-84503713319712984992011-01-23T16:12:24.043-06:002011-01-23T16:12:24.043-06:00Yes, I would. First of all, I don't think you ...Yes, I would. First of all, I don't think you need religious language to console people, even if those people are religious. I don't see why secular language can't do the same job as religious language when it comes to express grief and heartfelt sympathy. Furthermore, if the President wanted to console the families in a religious way, he could have done that in private. I don'Jason Streitfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06950357341620206095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-21552449174815924902011-01-23T15:47:50.389-06:002011-01-23T15:47:50.389-06:00Seeing Obama's speech in the context of a reel...Seeing Obama's speech in the context of a reelection campaign isn't cynical: it's realistic.<br /><br />Obama needs to win votes, not from atheists or progressives (and most atheists are probably progressive), but from the center, who are church-goers or at least not anti-religious. In order to win re-election, <br />Obama needs to convince people that he is 100% normal, s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-71681850976458366382011-01-23T15:46:20.752-06:002011-01-23T15:46:20.752-06:00Jason, I'm serious about secularism too. If th...Jason, I'm serious about secularism too. If this were a question of a principal giving a religious speech in a public school, I'd be with you 100%. I think the rules are different, though, at a public event that's not compulsory for anyone. <br /><br />Would you really have wanted Obama to console the parents of the dead girl less (and the other survivors), in order to maintain a Jean Kazeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-59714905833746415902011-01-23T15:33:29.233-06:002011-01-23T15:33:29.233-06:00Not in deference to atheists, but out of respect f...Not in deference to atheists, but out of respect for secularism.<br /><br />As for the other view being cynical, I grant that, and I'm not set on it. It's just a possibility I wouldn't reject out of hand. I don't think it's absurd or unreasonable.Jason Streitfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06950357341620206095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-41883658103437954342011-01-23T15:29:56.545-06:002011-01-23T15:29:56.545-06:00I thought my argument was evident. The President ...I thought my argument was evident. The President of The United States should not identify "all Americans" as kneeling in prayer, should not quote scripture, and should not engage in prayer when acting in a professional capacity. That is what a strong separation of church and state entails, in my mind. That is what I want from my President, and Obama let me down. (I wouldn't say Jason Streitfeldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06950357341620206095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-59435168410644449052011-01-23T15:29:10.887-06:002011-01-23T15:29:10.887-06:00Now I have two views of the speech to reject--(1) ...Now I have two views of the speech to reject--(1) it shouldn't have contained religious elements, in deference to atheists (2% of the US!), and (2) it contained religious elements because Obama was trying to be elected.<br /><br />The first view has no constitutional support, and frankly seems tasteless. No, atheists weren't the victims here! The second view is absurdly cynical.Jean Kazeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-66460205929413677982011-01-23T14:40:12.480-06:002011-01-23T14:40:12.480-06:00Obama's reelection campaign has begun. His s...Obama's reelection campaign has begun. His speech has to be seen in that context. He's a politician, not a philosopher. <br /><br />(I hope that he wins).s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.com