tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post4293333024178908545..comments2023-10-14T09:40:06.690-05:00Comments on Jean Kazez: The American Atheists' Harassment PolicyJean Kazezhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-349272917253334732012-07-22T13:31:14.809-05:002012-07-22T13:31:14.809-05:00The link explains the context behind the topic of ...The link explains the context behind the topic of this post:<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebecca_Watson#Elevator_incident<br /><br />It is not very helpful to propose paying attention to "nonverbal cues" when a fair slice of humanity has a tin ear about such cues.<br /><br />Rebecca Watson expects that those who interact with her respect norms that emerged during the tense 1970s RDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-37684938602763188332012-07-13T06:14:38.522-05:002012-07-13T06:14:38.522-05:00I'm a bit late to the party, but I want to add...I'm a bit late to the party, but I want to address the comments about autistic spectrum disorders (and other cases where someone doesn't read well or easily the non-verbal clues). Most of the people in these cases do recognize that they have the issue and adapt to it, as stated. However, the best sort of adaptations are those that allow them to act in socially appropriate ways so that Verbose Stoichttp://verbosestoic.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-25617464120270211462012-07-11T07:05:10.416-05:002012-07-11T07:05:10.416-05:00I wonder what people actually have in mind when th...I wonder what people actually have in mind when they hear the phrase "unwanted sexual attention". Taken in the most literal way, the phrase can cover a vast range of behaviour where no one has done anything wrong. Use your imagination and you'll come up with endless examples.<br /><br />I suppose, that the phrase will be interpreted narrowly in practice to involve somehow <i>Russell Blackfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12431324430596809958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-46613284104836903962012-07-11T04:53:32.691-05:002012-07-11T04:53:32.691-05:00I just posted this over at Talking Philosophy:
&q...I just posted this over at Talking Philosophy:<br /><br />"Whether or not the policy is ideal, the problem it addresses is, I submit, a real one, which is that, even if “it isn’t all that difficult to convey through body language” that one doesn’t wish to be touched, there are certain people who refuse to recognize those signals. The problem is not that women are “mentally weak and socially greg byshenknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-46572804901116694312012-07-10T21:09:25.814-05:002012-07-10T21:09:25.814-05:00The attorney encouraging disclaimers is entirely c...The attorney encouraging disclaimers is entirely correct. And, in fact, his suggested policy is almost identical to the policy in place at the conference hosting Skepchickon (though this year, Greg Laden wrote a special addendum just for Skepchick areas, because the men in our community apparently can't abide by normal standards of conduct). <br /><br />If the CFI wants to adopt a policy Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04025404621960228054noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-933720282177636502012-07-08T19:15:11.370-05:002012-07-08T19:15:11.370-05:00Awesome post - your point's are great.Awesome post - your point's are great.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-86607409747704002422012-07-08T18:59:31.579-05:002012-07-08T18:59:31.579-05:00Yes, the anti-hugging policy is ridiculous. As I&#...Yes, the anti-hugging policy is ridiculous. As I've said in other forums, I would not attend a convention with such a stupid and intrusive conduct policy. Once again, atheists have been made to look like idiots.Russell Blackfordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12431324430596809958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-2696136033913027752012-07-05T06:45:59.362-05:002012-07-05T06:45:59.362-05:00Jean,
Here's a different perspective on the p...Jean,<br /><br />Here's a different perspective on the policy issue from a blogger who had a brief discussion with an attorney. You may have seen this already, but just in case:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.skepticalabyss.com/?p=61" rel="nofollow">A LAWYER’S PERSPECTIVE ON CONFERENCE ANTI-HARASSMENT POLICIES</a><br /><br />Makes it difficult to know what to do.Ardent Skeptichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08354872490343863684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-80992830969194829722012-07-03T20:14:38.529-05:002012-07-03T20:14:38.529-05:00Greg Byshenk: "Of course, I submit, first, th...Greg Byshenk: "Of course, I submit, first, that this is the only sensible interpretation of the existing rule"<br /><br />That it's not the "only sensible interpretation" is pretty clear from the differences between the language of the OpenSF policy and the language of the AA policy. "No touching without asking" does not mean "No touching without asking, J. J. Ramseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00763792476799485687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-5628147246716727642012-07-02T15:01:01.948-05:002012-07-02T15:01:01.948-05:00@Notung
That because something should go without ...@Notung<br /><br />That because something should go without saying does not mean it does. More specifically I'm mocking the idea of "it goes without saying" because the list of things that do really isn't big enough for how often it's heard.<br /><br />Write the comment and whatever else up however you like.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01545220075374163686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-62826099619496700822012-07-02T12:38:16.438-05:002012-07-02T12:38:16.438-05:00Julian: Just like don't sell products whose ef...Julian: <i>Just like don't sell products whose efficacy you can't demonstrate.</i><br /><br />I'm not sure what your point is here.Notungnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-12530291401428608462012-07-02T03:48:20.188-05:002012-07-02T03:48:20.188-05:00J.J. Ramsey
"The problem is that this is not ...<b>J.J. Ramsey</b><br /><i>"The problem is that this is not what the policy actually says. It just says "No touching other people without asking," rather than (as the OpenSF policy does) "No touching other people without asking! (Or unless you already have that sort of relationship with them.)"</i><br />I can imagine changes in the wording of the rule, but this is greg byshenknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-21787533539902198722012-07-01T07:40:19.917-05:002012-07-01T07:40:19.917-05:00"Of course, these 'policies' should g..."Of course, these 'policies' should go without saying...-Notung"<br /><br />Just like don't sell products whose efficacy you can't demonstrate.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01545220075374163686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-46648463903730149482012-07-01T07:37:57.009-05:002012-07-01T07:37:57.009-05:00"This crosses the line from what's the co..."This crosses the line from what's the conference's business (all the stuff in the box above) to what's not. It's up to me, I think, how I handle the vast number of decisions that are in the realm of etiquette, not law or even ethics."<br /><br />This doesn't even make sense. How can how attendance members treat one another not be something organizers and staff Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01545220075374163686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-53253664417328956302012-07-01T06:38:57.417-05:002012-07-01T06:38:57.417-05:00"Certainly there may be some attendees who ar..."Certainly there may be some attendees who are friends with each other, but those who actually are such will already know their friends' attitudes toward being touched. The only cases in which the rule would have actual application are those where one does not know the other person, and wishes to presume to know their feelings on the matter."<br /><br />The problem is that this is J. J. Ramseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00763792476799485687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-1330877505434502392012-06-30T06:40:16.802-05:002012-06-30T06:40:16.802-05:00"This is pretty speculative, but (as I said i...<i>"This is pretty speculative, but (as I said in the post) it seems to me that a relaxed attitude toward touch is part of being a close and cohesive group--like a family. [...] So David Silverman shouldn't think it's all to the good if his policies suppress casual touch, but preserve casual sex. Something important might actually be lost, namely group bonding and cohesion."</i>greg byshenknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-77647405432731919572012-06-29T18:00:30.872-05:002012-06-29T18:00:30.872-05:00I agree, Jean! The CFI policy seems sensible and ...I agree, Jean! The CFI policy seems sensible and reasonable.Ardent Skeptichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08354872490343863684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-77647835317847242192012-06-29T11:57:42.930-05:002012-06-29T11:57:42.930-05:00CfI's sexual harassment policy seems like all ...CfI's sexual harassment policy seems like all anyone could want. Good for them--<br /><br />http://www.centerforinquiry.net/blogs/entry/cfis_new_policy_on_hostile_conduct_harassment_at_conferences/Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-70812897953206799422012-06-29T07:32:55.008-05:002012-06-29T07:32:55.008-05:00I don't know that much about people with Asper...I don't know that much about people with Asperger's. It could be they're better off adopting a personal code of conduct where they do ask before they touch people. It doesn't follow that should be the general code of conduct in larger groups.<br /><br />About casual touching vs. casual sex--<br /><br />This is pretty speculative, but (as I said in the post) it seems to me that a Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-22695981080106276712012-06-29T03:50:33.374-05:002012-06-29T03:50:33.374-05:00"And no, it doesn't help that David Silve..."And no, it doesn't help that David Silverman has added that he wants people to have sex at American Atheist conferences. There's something a little weird going on when it's seen as GRRRREAT!!!! for people to have casual hook-ups, but a serious infraction (worthy of being addressed in a conference policy) to touch someone without first asking permission."<br /><br />I don&#greg byshenknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-18287822069209394212012-06-28T21:54:22.675-05:002012-06-28T21:54:22.675-05:00MKG: yes, but hopefully people with Asperger's...MKG: yes, but hopefully people with Asperger's <i>know</i> they have difficulty picking up non-verbal cues, and develop strategies to work around this difficulty - in this case, asking first would probably be a pretty good idea. Still not something that has to be codified into an official rule.Tristannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-53850725123506850822012-06-28T19:50:08.433-05:002012-06-28T19:50:08.433-05:00Jean asks: "Pay attention to cues... Though--...Jean asks: "Pay attention to cues... Though--what kind of neanderthals don't know this?"<br /><br />People with Aspergers' Syndrome are not Neanderthals.Michael Kingsford Grayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15610344772081162910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-58569589110488869022012-06-28T17:43:00.048-05:002012-06-28T17:43:00.048-05:00I think it will be difficult to NOT make offensive...I think it will be difficult to NOT make offensive verbal comments about religion at an Atheist convention.Ardent Skeptichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08354872490343863684noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-14858433118422013472012-06-28T14:12:56.368-05:002012-06-28T14:12:56.368-05:00Bravo Jean. Very well said.Bravo Jean. Very well said.John Greghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17911886170229363285noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-65190874485266759112012-06-28T10:15:40.503-05:002012-06-28T10:15:40.503-05:00Yes, and they could add--"Pay attention to cu...Yes, and they could add--"Pay attention to cues. Not everyone wants to be touched and hugged." Though--what kind of neanderthals don't know this? I begin to wonder who goes to these conferences and what they are really like. Does the policy also need to say "Clean stray food morsels out of facial hair after meals"?Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.com