tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post4155193188080939827..comments2023-10-14T09:40:06.690-05:00Comments on Jean Kazez: Vegans, Donans, GreenansJean Kazezhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-82653076865781236802010-07-14T02:37:04.256-05:002010-07-14T02:37:04.256-05:00I would just like to point out that the notion tha...I would just like to point out that the notion that there are places in the world where "vegan options" aren't available at supermarkets is an absurdity. If you have a supermarket, you have vegan options.<br /><br />- vegetables<br />- fruits<br />- grains<br />- nuts & seedsJo Tylernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-57854641889629170762010-01-16T14:34:52.153-06:002010-01-16T14:34:52.153-06:00Before the AWA, researchers could do surgery on li...Before the AWA, researchers could do surgery on live animals without anesthesia. Do you really want to say that because the AWA now makes an abolitionist's job harder, it would have been better for the animals to go unanaesthized? I sure hope not.<br /><br />In any event, the issue is whether animal welfare legislation has increased the use of animals in labs, etc. Is there more killing, Jean Kazeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-71571110583040563892010-01-16T14:18:13.966-06:002010-01-16T14:18:13.966-06:00Alex: People concerned with what is hip or what ...Alex: People concerned with what is hip or what is in or what is back are perhaps the most irritating group of human beings around (and there are many irritating groups of human beings).<br />However, in trying to convince people to become vegans or vegetarians or to do anything else, one should not concern oneself with those who see it as a fashionable trend, but look for those who are s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-4259563731887386632010-01-16T13:16:12.801-06:002010-01-16T13:16:12.801-06:00Maybe it wasn't fair to lump your legislative ...Maybe it wasn't fair to lump your legislative examples together with the "happy meat" movement, but I see them all as being related in the sense that they reinforce the exploitation of animals.<br /><br />The Animal Welfare Act of 1966 (together with the 1985 amendmants) is a fraud. It's essentially a free pass to the vivisection industry -- it's government-sanctioned Alex Chernavskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08200015595839585212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-4521749616087458802010-01-16T12:48:04.398-06:002010-01-16T12:48:04.398-06:00Alex, The anti-welfarists say that major pieces of...Alex, The anti-welfarists say that major pieces of legislation like the AWA, the Humane Slaughter Act, and state animal cruelty laws have done no good for animals. As I said, that strikes me as delusional.<br /><br />To counter my charge, you tell me that some vegetarians are starting to eat "humane" meat. How can that possibly be relevant? It's a total non sequitur.<br /><br />Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-74927691185511631752010-01-16T12:17:23.692-06:002010-01-16T12:17:23.692-06:00Amos wrote, "Alex claims that there is a vega...Amos wrote, "Alex claims that there is a vegan section in most supermarkets".<br /><br />That's not exactly what I said. I said that even moderate-sized supermarkets typically have a wide variety of vegan foods. I'm not necessarily talking about the specialized, niche products like faux meats. I'm talking about fruits & vegetables (both fresh and canned), rice, nuts, Alex Chernavskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08200015595839585212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-75741076600800500402010-01-16T12:00:27.934-06:002010-01-16T12:00:27.934-06:00Sorry, I've been away for a while. Catching u...Sorry, I've been away for a while. Catching up now.<br /><br />Jean wrote, "It is just wild to claim that all the different animal welfare laws, from the Humane Slaughter Act, to the Animal Welfare Act, to all the state animal cruelty laws, have been steps backwards. I see this claim as entirely ideological and polemical--bordering on delusional."<br /><br />Delusional? I see the Alex Chernavskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08200015595839585212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-84367882584759334512010-01-13T17:57:03.753-06:002010-01-13T17:57:03.753-06:00You seem to care about your kids a lot, in an Eri...You seem to care about your kids a lot, in an Erich Fromm (Art of Loving) kind of way. That's rarer than it should be.s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-27709816355827583152010-01-13T14:02:30.628-06:002010-01-13T14:02:30.628-06:00I'm gratified to hear my book is "out in ...I'm gratified to hear my book is "out in the world"! Thanks very much for ordering it.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-82071241853741917772010-01-13T13:56:34.479-06:002010-01-13T13:56:34.479-06:00Taylor: I think it would be more accurate to say t...Taylor: I think it would be more accurate to say that a number of *vegan*-feminist philosophers (all ten of them) have taken issue with George, not "feminist philosophers" as you state.<br /><br />No doubt there will be a number of vegans who disagree with Jean's latest work -- which, incidentally, I received in the mail from Amazon today.Melissanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-86125924693921849642010-01-13T13:44:38.318-06:002010-01-13T13:44:38.318-06:00I would discourage it, because I don't in fact...I would discourage it, because I don't in fact think my kids would succeed at eating a balanced diet, but more than that, because I don't want them going around feeling like all sorts of yummy things are forbidden. I think it would be sad for a kid to miss out on every slice of birthday cake at every birthday party. This is not the way to feel like a part of this world. <br /><br />I Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-69785512957084355702010-01-13T13:11:33.545-06:002010-01-13T13:11:33.545-06:00Melissa: For the record, Evelyn Pluhar is a philos...Melissa: For the record, Evelyn Pluhar is a philosopher and the author of Beyond Prejudice: The Moral Significance of Human and Nonhuman Animals. (Her debate with George is not part of that work.) A number of feminist philosophers (e.g., Josephine Donovan, Lori Gruen) have taken issue with George.<br /><br />Jean: You probably know that the American Dietetic Association says: "Well-planned Taylornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-69558801386800955192010-01-13T08:50:02.929-06:002010-01-13T08:50:02.929-06:00What Amos said...I agree on all fronts. My kids m...What Amos said...I agree on all fronts. My kids made their own decision to be vegetarians. It's their decision to not fit in 100%--not mine. I think I'd draw the line, though, if they wanted to be vegans. I don't think they'd get enough protein because they're not terribly fond of beans and they dislike all the animal product substitutes that vegans eat (as I do). I also Jean Kazeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-63998890840883890262010-01-13T08:14:23.059-06:002010-01-13T08:14:23.059-06:00Taylor: I am not familiar with Evelyn Pluhar, nor ...Taylor: I am not familiar with Evelyn Pluhar, nor have I read Sheri Lucas's "defense."<br /><br />But "Ouch" is right. That's quite the defense, however I do not think it says much at all about KPG's actual arguments. I would suggest that those who attack KPG's position take a listen to Secretary of State Clinton's recent speech on the 15th Anniversary of Melissanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-82053469640631710142010-01-13T07:50:11.141-06:002010-01-13T07:50:11.141-06:00I've never managed to raise a vegetarian or ev...I've never managed to raise a vegetarian or even less a vegan child. First of all, all the kids I've dealt with go through a stage, from say, age 4 to age 14,<br />when they absolutely refuse to eat vegetables and when they are very fussy about eating fruit. Since a healthy vegan or even vegetarian diet requires a wide assortment of non-animal foods, it is difficult to get those s. wallersteinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17448905469871566228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-35320412376788299552010-01-13T07:44:53.953-06:002010-01-13T07:44:53.953-06:00"basing campaigns on suffering leads to steps..."basing campaigns on suffering leads to steps backward instead of steps forward"<br /><br />I think for the abolitionist crowd this is an "idee fixe" and not supported by evidence. It is just wild to claim that all the different animal welfare laws, from the Humane Slaughter Act, to the Animal Welfare Act, to all the state animal cruelty laws, have been steps backwards. I see Jean Kazeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-87286169631562576202010-01-12T23:31:13.442-06:002010-01-12T23:31:13.442-06:00Evelyn Pluhar has debated Kathryn Paxton George at...Evelyn Pluhar has debated Kathryn Paxton George at some length about George's nutrition claims. And Sheri Lucas says the following in "A Defense of the Feminist-Vegetarian Connection" (Hypatia vol 20, no. 1, Winter 2005):<br /><br />"George’s central feminist challenges rely on a problematic principle of nonarbitrariness, equivocate between dietary and ethical vegetarianism, Taylornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-21908288274470519842010-01-12T22:29:49.522-06:002010-01-12T22:29:49.522-06:00Melissa, your arguments about "Attorney Franc...Melissa, your arguments about "Attorney Francione" and the sow would make more sense if welfare "reforms" actually made some appreciable difference in the lives of farm animals (see <a href="http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1328275.ece" rel="nofollow">here</a>, for an example of the horrific conditions that are present in a "humane" farming facility).Alex Chernavskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08200015595839585212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-78121995397333736552010-01-12T21:26:46.445-06:002010-01-12T21:26:46.445-06:00Just one more thing. I've often thought that i...Just one more thing. I've often thought that if I were a farm animal I would not want an abolitionist vegan representing me.<br /><br />"Miss Piggy - it's Attorney Francione on the line. He says you'll have to give birth in that sow stall. He's not settling."<br /><br />I would want the lawyer fighting for my welfare during captivity as well as fighting for my release/Melissanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-38521844172835846432010-01-12T20:59:06.056-06:002010-01-12T20:59:06.056-06:00Alex: I wonder, do you know many adults who have b...Alex: I wonder, do you know many adults who have been vegan from birth?Melissanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-41806751466764663582010-01-12T20:55:06.070-06:002010-01-12T20:55:06.070-06:00Re: instincts. Yes, maybe that's the wrong wor...Re: instincts. Yes, maybe that's the wrong word. "Instinct" makes it sounds like we're born knowing what's nutritious, and that's surely nonsense. I'm all for learning, reading, listening. But what I'm saying is--having acquired lots of information and experience for many years (yes, I'm over 18), the conclusion I draw is "no vegan kids." That'Jean Kazeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-33772502604811163552010-01-12T20:53:37.276-06:002010-01-12T20:53:37.276-06:00Alex, I realize I'm new here on Jean's blo...Alex, I realize I'm new here on Jean's blog, so I should perhaps let you know that I'm actually very familiar with the arguments presented by Gary Francione/Friends of Animals and others. I've read books about the emotional lives of farm animals. So I understand the arguments, yet I disagree with the so-called abolitionist approach. I have a different worldview, a different Melissanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-17671687246709404462010-01-12T20:44:38.163-06:002010-01-12T20:44:38.163-06:00To me it just sounds horrendous to say "it...To me it just sounds horrendous to say "it's counterproductive to focus on animal suffering." Suffering matters, period. We should focus on it just because it's an awful thing. We shouldn't be first figuring out whether it would be "productive" or "counterproductive" to focus on it. Empathy requires us to respond--now, and without strategizing. That Jean Kazeznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-26313492898882948412010-01-12T20:40:44.381-06:002010-01-12T20:40:44.381-06:00"my instincts just tell me no".
I'm..."my instincts just tell me no".<br /><br />I'm not a big believer in the power of instincts or intuition. Cornell psychologist Thomas Gilovich wrote an excellent book called, <i><a href="http://www.amazon.com/How-Know-What-Isnt-Fallibility/dp/0029117062" rel="nofollow">How We Know What Isn't So: The Fallibility of Human Reason in Everyday Life</a></i>. He provides all sorts ofAlex Chernavskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08200015595839585212noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-26984656295581589922010-01-12T20:10:46.905-06:002010-01-12T20:10:46.905-06:00Melissa wrote, "If we want to talk about elim...Melissa wrote, "If we want to talk about eliminating suffering, let's discuss factory farming. Omnivores and vegetarians alike actually agree that the cruel practices involved are unacceptable, immoral - no arguments there."<br /><br />From an animal-rights perspective, I think it's counter-productive to focus on animal suffering, because doing so sends the implicit message thatAlex Chernavskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08200015595839585212noreply@blogger.com