tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post3678687571276412285..comments2023-10-14T09:40:06.690-05:00Comments on Jean Kazez: Ethics Poll: The Talent ShowJean Kazezhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-53333507577826827622007-09-16T12:09:00.000-05:002007-09-16T12:09:00.000-05:00I'd stay, mostly because of 3, but also a little o...I'd stay, mostly because of 3, but also a little of (8) Other. <BR/><BR/>I don't have any kids of my own, but I do remember performing in talent shows. No doubt they were incredibly tedious for the parents in the audience, but to me they were big fancy deals. I wasn't just presenting a performance; I was part of a show, and I was proud of my inclusion. If my parents had left after my performance,Sculpinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12691191099184035711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-30955539836644670542007-09-16T11:02:00.000-05:002007-09-16T11:02:00.000-05:00I think there's also a matter of politeness/awaren...I think there's also a matter of politeness/awareness of feelings for the teachers who are putting on this show. <BR/><BR/>Frankly, the kids may not even notice if other people are there or not (depending on their age), and the other parents may be wishing their kids had gone first so they could leave early. But the other adults in charge have probably put in a lot of work in organizing this Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-21793526142173635132007-09-15T16:54:00.000-05:002007-09-15T16:54:00.000-05:00I'm afraid I'm plumping for the pleasingly fuzzy n...I'm afraid I'm plumping for the pleasingly fuzzy no.6 - but mainly because I'd want to know what my older son, David, wanted to do. [ I know you disallowed pressing reasons to leave, so I'll ignore baby Matthew for now :-) ]<BR/><BR/>But as Outeast pointed out, this is the weakness of hypotheticals (and economics 'experiments' where your own money isn't on the line!). I'd love to say I'd be a andy gilmourhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10851062438056633660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-13121401469653872842007-09-15T14:52:00.000-05:002007-09-15T14:52:00.000-05:007: I would certainly feel an obligation or duty to...7: I would certainly feel an obligation or duty to stay - something owed most of all to the children - but in reality whether I stayed the course or not would depend... Barring an overlong programme, oppressive heat, obvious lack of effort on the part of the kids etc I would stay. The planners of such events have a duty not to make the experience too hellish, though - 45 minutes of childrens Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-76238738942304769152007-09-15T14:01:00.000-05:002007-09-15T14:01:00.000-05:00The more I think about it the more not okay I thin...The more I think about it the more not okay I think it is. There's the kind of emotional energy to it that people like Jonathan Haidt talk about - perhaps even a kind of disgust. It seems such a classic kind of petty selfishness, a my kid first and your kid nowhere attitude that makes - that literally makes me wrinkle my nose: when I paused to hunt for the physical metaphor (I started to think 'Ophelia Bensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08000353980872079468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-76426818254989483902007-09-15T13:41:00.000-05:002007-09-15T13:41:00.000-05:00About the "what we teach our kids" issue. I agree...About the "what we teach our kids" issue. I agree it's really important. I think about it whenever I do things in front of my kids. <BR/><BR/>It doesn't seem like it's of the essence, though. First you have to figure out whether it's OK or not to leave the show. Once you've figured that out, doing the right thing (whatever that is) just takes on extra importance if you're a model for your Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-60125257904651237572007-09-15T12:19:00.000-05:002007-09-15T12:19:00.000-05:00One point which doesn't seem to have been mentione...One point which doesn't seem to have been mentioned is the example you want to set to your kids. You want to show them that it's important in a situation like this to listen to everyone (unless it's, you know, completely awful).<BR/><BR/>As a corollary, if you just stick around for your child's performance, it suggests to your child that the other parents there are just turning up for their own Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-6903141303918759512007-09-15T12:18:00.000-05:002007-09-15T12:18:00.000-05:00About the feelings of parents versus those of kids...About the feelings of parents versus those of kids - I think both matter, though the kids' matter more (both because they're more vulnerable and because they're the ones performing) - because I think parents' feelings are hurt by the departure of others too. And in fact parents' feelings are probably hurt vicariously as well as personally - which can add up to feeling pretty terrible. I think theOphelia Bensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08000353980872079468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-46126572373884840162007-09-15T10:49:00.000-05:002007-09-15T10:49:00.000-05:00I tried to make the answers pithy and readable.#1 ...I tried to make the answers pithy and readable.<BR/><BR/>#1 is short for--"My feelings count,and only my feelings count. I wouldn't see it as a moral issue, or if I did, my morality is egocentric. What's best for me is the right thing for me to do." With that understanding of what #1 means, it's not inevitable. <BR/><BR/>If you read #1 as saying "I'll do what I decide to do" then yes, it's Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-23881422112943661802007-09-15T10:43:00.000-05:002007-09-15T10:43:00.000-05:00Isn't answer #1 inevitable?Isn't answer #1 inevitable?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-17010623273511190402007-09-15T09:44:00.000-05:002007-09-15T09:44:00.000-05:00Oh, and unlike potentilla I would count my own bor...Oh, and unlike potentilla I would count my own boredom as important, if not necessarily important enough to make me leave.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-22037907390537758992007-09-15T09:43:00.000-05:002007-09-15T09:43:00.000-05:00I voted 7. It would be difficult to get at 6 prope...I voted 7. It would be difficult to get at 6 properly, I don't see how you would find out, but I think with a God's eye view that is what I'd base my decision on (assuming utility can be properly maximised), but I think the main thing going through my mind would be number 3, so I expect I'd stay.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-38247251263465483732007-09-15T07:27:00.000-05:002007-09-15T07:27:00.000-05:006 is an attempt to provide a Utilitarian option. ...6 is an attempt to provide a Utilitarian option. I was trying to make it sound natural, like something that might run through someone's mind, but it was difficult.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-48841530641389500552007-09-15T03:01:00.000-05:002007-09-15T03:01:00.000-05:00Like Arnaud says, 1) needs to comprise actuallly e...Like Arnaud says, 1) needs to comprise actuallly enjoying the show, or feeling as though some effort has been put into it.<BR/><BR/>The size of the remaining crowd plus whether or not people are leaving quickly and noticeably would also be a factor.<BR/><BR/>Thing with 6 is that it is very ill-defined.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-31061015657647792522007-09-15T01:14:00.000-05:002007-09-15T01:14:00.000-05:003 & 4 -- I wouldn't worry particularly about doing...3 & 4 -- I wouldn't worry particularly about doing the right thing by the other parents, or expect them to take my feelings into account, because it's trumped by the need to do the right thing by the kids, not adults in the audience.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-77322436053275906932007-09-14T21:50:00.000-05:002007-09-14T21:50:00.000-05:002 & 3 struck me immediately as "sounding right" - ...2 & 3 struck me immediately as "sounding right" - which seems the best approach to take when considering moral intuitions (which seems to be in part the goal of this poll). Reciprocity and sympathy. Hmm. How... interesting.<BR/>:-)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-63686749392225518002007-09-14T21:23:00.000-05:002007-09-14T21:23:00.000-05:00I probably only enjoy talent shows in which my own...I probably only enjoy talent shows in which my own kids perform. There's the guilty pleasure of seeing who does worse than your own kid and the challenge of dealing with who does better. That adds to the entertainment value. It's a pretty shameful thing to admit to. Not ethically relevant though, of course.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-51862404981078473312007-09-14T20:22:00.000-05:002007-09-14T20:22:00.000-05:002 other possibilities:1 - I might genuinely enjoy ...2 other possibilities:<BR/>1 - I might genuinely enjoy the show and/or wait for the chance to see something actually worth the wait. Your poll seems to postulate the fact that kids talent shows are a real shore. But then, I have no kids, so what do I know?<BR/>2 - And I think that is what your #2 allude to, there is a kind of tacit contract you agree to when you attend such a show, a kind of Arnaudhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01981811952772848574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-73724273207314629442007-09-14T20:07:00.000-05:002007-09-14T20:07:00.000-05:003=4>2>5There's already plenty of selfishness and r...3=4>2>5<BR/><BR/>There's already plenty of selfishness and rudeness in the world, without adding to it.<BR/><BR/>Doesn't mean I'd <I>enjoy</I> staying, though (I remember a particularly excruciating 3-hour primary school ballet I had to sit through. I still suffer from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder years later..)!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-72160571152549342062007-09-14T18:26:00.000-05:002007-09-14T18:26:00.000-05:00I voted yesterday, but didn't think to comment.I w...I voted yesterday, but didn't think to comment.<BR/><BR/>I would stay because of 2-5 - and very strongly because of 3. 3 would keep me nailed to my seat (and looking enthralled, clapping madly, etc) unless the building actually caught fire. I'm phobic about hurting people's feelings - I mean really phobic: the mere thought of it makes me squirm with discomfort.<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure why rudeness Ophelia Bensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08000353980872079468noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-46953706467607061482007-09-10T14:03:00.000-05:002007-09-10T14:03:00.000-05:00I would stay (number 3). To leave for anything exc...I would stay (number 3). To leave for anything except a pressing or emergency reason clearly indicates that your interest is only in your own child and not even truly in the skill they are developing which is presumably important to them and so also to me (in my family's case dance). My child always wanted to stay after her performance. She had a genuine love of dance and interest in how and whatAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-42554114531549473022007-09-06T13:09:00.000-05:002007-09-06T13:09:00.000-05:00I had thought about pet shows, but there's not tha...I had thought about pet shows, but there's not that much of an audience set-up there. (Then again, in "Best in Show" maybe there was...?)<BR/><BR/>Politness. Hmm. I hadn't thought of that option. I probably should have vetted the options before setting up the poll, but there's no turning back! That's presumably "other."Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-79431354441947000992007-09-05T23:33:00.000-05:002007-09-05T23:33:00.000-05:00No kids, but a lot of cats. Does that count? :-)I'...No kids, but a lot of cats. Does that count? :-)<BR/><BR/>I'd stay, for the simple reason that it's quite rude to do otherwise. Manners are important. <BR/><BR/>Those who depart after their child has competed are basically saying "I can't be bothered being polite". Nice, hmm?<BR/><BR/>Carolyn AnnAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00333372966116029977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-65459687120539600302007-09-05T12:06:00.000-05:002007-09-05T12:06:00.000-05:007,6,4,3 - but mostly 4 so that's what I voted. I d...7,6,4,3 - but mostly 4 so that's what I voted. I don't have any kids though - so it is a bit hypothetical.pjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06832177812057826894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-55889840476658783982007-09-05T11:33:00.000-05:002007-09-05T11:33:00.000-05:00Let me fix this to make it explicit that you have ...Let me fix this to make it explicit that you have no pressing reason to leave. That will make your answer 7--because you've got a combination of reasons. I can't change the answers at this point, but I can make the question clearer.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.com