tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post307524496583525219..comments2023-10-14T09:40:06.690-05:00Comments on Jean Kazez: "I wish my mother had aborted me"Jean Kazezhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-36124823101318367472012-08-26T21:48:53.364-05:002012-08-26T21:48:53.364-05:00The question the piece raises for me is not about ...The question the piece raises for me is not about the morality of abortion, but about an apparently paradoxical statement by the author: "I love my life but I wish my mother had aborted me" -- not just for her mother's sake, but for her sake as well.<br /><br />If I am now glad that I exist and look forward to having a positive future from now on, how can it make sense for me to Aeolushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15772583359516799143noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-87170154556399815622012-08-25T09:10:44.889-05:002012-08-25T09:10:44.889-05:00Thank you, Wayne, but I'm prepared to have Fau...Thank you, Wayne, but I'm prepared to have Faust (or someone else) come back and tell me why gladness about existing does have some moral weight, and why. I'm just thinking aloud here, not 100% committed (yet).Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-57080439614162032212012-08-24T23:18:45.770-05:002012-08-24T23:18:45.770-05:00Hats off! That circumcision insight is very keen!...Hats off! That circumcision insight is very keen!Waynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08627147979307495870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-86545077109162656332012-08-24T12:28:23.391-05:002012-08-24T12:28:23.391-05:00Putting it as charitably as I possibly can, I thin...Putting it as charitably as I possibly can, I think the steps are more like this--<br /><br />1. I'm glad that I exist<br />2. My existence started to be something people could choose or veto back when I was a fetus*. (Before that, they couldn't really choose or veto *me*, since we don't control who is conceived.)<br />3. Since I'm glad I exist, Mom was obligated to choose that IJean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-83827539402666167802012-08-24T11:23:43.997-05:002012-08-24T11:23:43.997-05:00But, you say, it doesn't lead me to the conclu...<i>But, you say, it doesn't lead me to the conclusion that she would have been wrong to do things different, so I was never conceived in the first place. Why not?</i><br /><br />I assume the answer would be something like “because we are not obligated to bring specific people into existence. We are only obligated not to take existence away from them once they already have it.” I’m not (Faustnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-76927084499595554062012-08-24T09:49:07.444-05:002012-08-24T09:49:07.444-05:00I agree that he might be onto something, but I'...I agree that he might be onto something, but I'm not really seeing it yet. I think the people making the gladness argument are putting all their stress on the gladness itself. The gladness of the later child or adult creates the mother's duty not to abort. If you thought gladness could create that duty, I really don't see why it couldn't create a vast array of other duties. Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-26905183896981393222012-08-24T09:42:14.323-05:002012-08-24T09:42:14.323-05:00I think that making too sharp a distinction betwee...I think that making too sharp a distinction between the 'gladness' and the 'rights;'' might be causing problems, by the way. Surely rights are bound up with 'gladness' in some important sense?Torquil Macneilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-47239006578019403722012-08-24T09:39:57.326-05:002012-08-24T09:39:57.326-05:00I think Faust is on to something here too. I am &#...I think Faust is on to something here too. I am 'glad my mother didn't abort me' is, with the conditions he mentions, similar to 'I am glad my mother didn't kill me in my infancy'. That does not imply that the mother had any moral obligations to you before you existed or was obliged to bring you into existence, but once you do exist your entitlement to pleasure in your Torquil Macneilnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-75949456441593939302012-08-24T08:59:48.403-05:002012-08-24T08:59:48.403-05:00Faust--
How's this supposed to work? It occur...Faust--<br /><br />How's this supposed to work? It occurs to me that I'm glad that I exist. That is supposed to lead me to the conclusion that my mother would have been wrong to terminate me once I was already conceived. <br /><br />But, you say, it doesn't lead me to the conclusion that she would have been wrong to do things different, so I was never conceived in the first place. Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592593002719828153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-66028369972369527222012-08-23T18:11:04.988-05:002012-08-23T18:11:04.988-05:00Jean, I’m afraid you may be giving short shrift to...Jean, I’m afraid you may be giving short shrift to Anon here. <br /><br />You want to suggest that the statement <br /><br />“Had my mother had an abortion, I wouldn’t have been born.”<br /><br />Is equivalent to statements like: <br /><br />“Had my mother not gone to the movies that night, I wouldn’t have been born.” <br /><br />Or<br /><br />“Had my father been kicked just a little to the left,Faustnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-75752251754629945222012-08-22T09:44:05.325-05:002012-08-22T09:44:05.325-05:00Anonymous, I think you are mixing up two different...Anonymous, I think you are mixing up two different arguments.<br /><br />The people who make the "gladness" argument, and point to abortion deliverance stories, are trying to make an argument that's an <i>alternative</i> to the standard argument that human life starts from conception and every abortion is a murder. If they weren't giving an alternative argument, they wouldn'Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-284059810832882652012-08-22T09:34:36.633-05:002012-08-22T09:34:36.633-05:00Your argument, based on your premise, is irrelevan...Your argument, based on your premise, is irrelevant though. <br /><br />Every (or at least to my knowledge) pro-life defender will claim that human life starts with the conception. Therefore, every abortion is (by that standard) per definition murder.<br /><br />Stating you are glad you exist because you have not been aborted is, by such reasoning, not the same as claiming you are glad you exist Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-32445974098486387692012-08-21T18:34:17.071-05:002012-08-21T18:34:17.071-05:00I'm glad to be alive but if I had been aborted...I'm glad to be alive but if I had been aborted I wouldn't be here to be sad about it (and would never have experienced even the sadness of loss of a future potential happiness - which I probably now *will* have to suffer if I remain conscious at the time of my impending doom). <br /><br />But then in my case, so far as I know, abortion wasn't being considered at all. <br /><br />The Alan Cooperhttp://qpr.ca/blognoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-2874779382273484912012-08-21T16:07:37.019-05:002012-08-21T16:07:37.019-05:00Well in my example the goodness is the gladness or...Well in my example the goodness is the gladness or happiness from the party. But I don't think the goodness extends to the cause of the event necessarily. We can be good utilitarians and say that I'm happy, and that's good. But what caused my happiness could invite different moral evaluations. <br /><br />I think you're right that there isn't any sense in talking about Waynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08627147979307495870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-63782225736499324292012-08-21T10:56:19.612-05:002012-08-21T10:56:19.612-05:00I was actually wondering where you'd been the ...I was actually wondering where you'd been the other day...<br /><br />OK, OK, I'll get rid of captcha.<br /><br />Gladness may have moral weight in some contexts--I think the problem here is peculiar to the issue of our existence, and what people did/didn't do to cause us to exist.Jean Kazezhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06297159994901018071noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8310450667755637519.post-90912018451960500292012-08-21T10:50:56.772-05:002012-08-21T10:50:56.772-05:00I'm glad that my parents went away for the wee...I'm glad that my parents went away for the weekend.... Because if they hadn't I wouldn't have been able to have the raging party that I had. So it must be a good thing for them to have gone away.<br /><br />The Gladness argument seems to ignore the parent's happiness usually. <br /><br />BTW this is off topic, but I've discovered the convenience of reading blogs on my ipod Waynehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08627147979307495870noreply@blogger.com